Escape: Qantas reveals new inclusive uniforms, scraps male and female classifications

[Coder]

https://www.escape.com.au/news/qantas-r ... 5229f554e6

This one is interesting - another airline is adjusting their rules. I couldn’t find an article stating the exact rules, or one on Quantas’ website, but I presume this means men can wear skirts:

‘Male’ and ‘female’ uniform categories have been scrapped, replaced with uniform ‘capsules’ – a classification system that organises which uniform pieces can be worn together and with what grooming requirements.

[Coder]

Obviously the usual disclaimers apply:

1. They likely don’t have cuts that are tailored for men’s bodies
2. No “regular guy” is going to wear the “women’s uniform”

It would be nice to be proven wrong.

Is this progress? Or more of the same? I realize male flight attendants wearing skirts is not going to influence a lot of people.

[Barleymower]

Obviously the usual disclaimers apply:

1. They likely don’t have cuts that are tailored for men’s bodies
2. No “regular guy” is going to wear the “women’s uniform”

It would be nice to be proven wrong.

Is this progress? Or more of the same? I realize male flight attendants wearing skirts is not going to influence a lot of people.

Coder I do the same, I look for places where mens skirts are being accepted. I do find lots of instances (not worth posting) of men liberating their wardrobes but I've started thinking that maybe I'm approaching this the wrong way. Maybe I should be finding out exactly what the problem is and then look for instances where that has changed.
I mean what is a normal man? Suicide rates are three times higher for men and 50% of all men have considered it.
The world does not seem to care about men, preferring instead to label men as toxic and needing to change.

[STEVIE]

Maybe I should be finding out exactly what the problem is and then look for instances where that has changed.

The change that has really occurred is the superficial relaxation of certain dress codes for men and boys.
Many employers will happily state a policy to allow men to wear skirts at work, PR magic.
Schools will hold themselves up as beacons of inclusion by having gender free uniform policies.
They do this in a safe and certain knowledge of the current status quo.
The change that has not occurred, men and boys in skirts are no more accepted by society now as opposed to 20 years ago.
Tolerated, maybe, but accepted never and that is enough to deter a lot of males from taking advantage of the spurious opportunities being offered.
Steve.

[Coder]

Tolerated, maybe, but accepted never and that is enough to deter a lot of males from taking advantage of the spurious opportunities being offered.
Steve.

Do you - or does anyone here - think there might be a tipping point? Airlines are probably the worst examples due to stereotypes. For adults though, is there any one business or industry that, if they opened up dress codes, would make a seismic shift? I feel like there are very few businesses left that people look up to and require strict uniform adherence.

Spurious may they be, if I were in the situation I'd wear the "uniform with a skirt" if the skirt was comfortable enough. Hopefully it has some elastic and provides a decent stride length.

[Barleymower]

Tolerated, maybe, but accepted never and that is enough to deter a lot of males from taking advantage of the spurious opportunities being offered.
Steve.

Do you - or does anyone here - think there might be a tipping point? Airlines are probably the worst examples due to stereotypes. For adults though, is there any one business or industry that, if they opened up dress codes, would make a seismic shift? I feel like there are very few businesses left that people look up to and require strict uniform adherence.

Spurious may they be, if I were in the situation I'd wear the "uniform with a skirt" if the skirt was comfortable enough. Hopefully it has some elastic and provides a decent stride length.

As I said I think we need to know what the actual problem is with men in skirts. People say its fine but loose their cool when it's one of there own. Others are against it but temper their reasons to what they percieve others will find acceptable. I suspect it might run deeper and some don't even know why they are horrified by men in skirts.
Take the trans movement. Who are they actually harming? Noone. Trans people are being targeted because superficial problems and sport. Does that really justify the visceral condemnation that's happening.
I see many here on this forum as level headed. In this post is Coder and Stevie who are both great guys. I would like you say you are wrong Adrian and it will turn out good. I would however take some convincing, my opinion of my fellow human is at an all time low.
As for tipping point? It's a start isn't it? I think the trend is spreading and acceptance is growing. At the other end of the scale its been eroded by bigots who probably have their own hang ups.

[ScotL]

Do you - or does anyone here - think there might be a tipping point? Airlines are probably the worst examples due to stereotypes. For adults though, is there any one business or industry that, if they opened up dress codes, would make a seismic shift? I feel like there are very few businesses left that people look up to and require strict uniform adherence.

Spurious may they be, if I were in the situation I'd wear the "uniform with a skirt" if the skirt was comfortable enough. Hopefully it has some elastic and provides a decent stride length.

I do. The tipping point won’t come from an airline uniform. Or probably any uniform because outside of Halloween, no one dons the uniform off duty. Unless you count football jerseys and military fatigues. But those professions do not lend themselves to skirt wearing. And the skirts I see airline attendants wear seem to constrict stride and are likely made of uniform material (read low quality and not super comfortable).

But I believe the universal truth about skirts over pants is the comfort factor. I see “macho men” don utility kilts. Why? They’re comfortable and throw on the multiple accoutrements that mimic a tool belt and offer it in camo so they can retain their “man card.” Mix in a poor suggestion of “Braveheart” and that’s a winning combo.

But it’s a wrap skirt. A man‘s wrap skirt but a skirt called a utility kilt for the wearer’s sensibilities.

What did Brad Pitt say in response to why he wore? “The breeze.” Yeah, pessimists state celebrities only don skirts for attention. I think both are true cause haven’t we also stated we like to feel the breeze on the legs when we wear a skirt?Regardless, to common men, the phrase “well, Brad Pitt wore one” can have a validating effect.

Because skirts aren’t a fashion staple for men, I do not see fashion being the driving force. There have been fads over the years that some men adopted e.g. parachute pants, sweater tied around neck over polo but in general men aren’t driven to fashion like women are.

But when the summer heat begins, start wearing a cooler garment like a kilt next to the sweating men whilst their eggs boil and see if you don’t start making inroads in terms of comfort.

If asked, like a friend asked me, reply “it’s like wearing a towel all day” and hearken the experience to that time I feel many love. That, I just stepped out of a warm shower and now lay there in a towel not wanting to go to work.

In my opinion, the tipping point happens when men realize the comfort AND stop worrying their masculinity will suffer.

[Coder]

But I believe the universal truth about skirts over pants is the comfort factor. I see “macho men” don utility kilts. Why? They’re comfortable and throw on the multiple accoutrements that mimic a tool belt and offer it in camo so they can retain their “man card.” Mix in a poor suggestion of “Braveheart” and that’s a winning combo.

But utility kilts have been around - forever. 23 years if you consider the founding of Utilikilts as the launching point. Even those carry some stigma, although are much more accepted than plain skirts (though, besides family, I have yet to run into a negative reaction whilst skirted). But they aren't yet mainstream.

In my opinion, the tipping point happens when men realize the comfort AND stop worrying their masculinity will suffer.

I honestly don't buy the comfort argument. I don't want to stray too down the path of things we shouldn't talk about - all I'll say is men shouldn't wear skirts commando. I don't think clothing is about comfort - it's about practicality and "proper attire for the occasion". That doesn't mean I don't dress for comfort, but you wouldn't have soooooo many uncomfortable clothing styles in mainstream culture such as:

neck ties
suits
white oxford shirts
starched collars (is this even done anymore?)
dress shoes
skinny jeans

That's just on the men's aisle - women have far more unnecessary and uncomfortable clothing items, which they don for "fashion/beauty/society" and maybe "themselves".

Pants are "comfortable enough" that the threat of a skirt to their masculinity is too powerful a force to overcome. If so chosen, they could go with baggy pants or baggy shorts, and there are lighter weight fabric options out there. But they won't be choosing them because of the comfort factor, they will have to embrace the silhouette a skirt creates, the notion of a single tube - the idea of it as a style choice - and as you said - "stop worrying their masculinity will suffer".

And the ultimate problem - something we don't bring up often enough - they do not know they have a choice.

[denimini]

Is this progress? Or more of the same? I realize male flight attendants wearing skirts is not going to influence a lot of people.

I think the main thrust is that women will be able to wear pants if they wish ......... or a pants "capsule" as they may call it. Hosiery has to be worn with dresses or skirts and no doubt other things that are required for that particular capsule. As with Coder, I have found no detail.

I think that we can safely retain the comfort and joy of skirts as the best kept secret for the time being.

[rivegauche]

In my opinion, the tipping point happens when men realize the comfort AND stop worrying their masculinity will suffer.

I honestly don't buy the comfort argument. I don't want to stray too down the path of things we shouldn't talk about - all I'll say is men shouldn't wear skirts commando. I don't think clothing is about comfort - it's about practicality and "proper attire for the occasion". That doesn't mean I don't dress for comfort, but you wouldn't have soooooo many uncomfortable clothing styles in mainstream culture such as:

neck ties
suits
white oxford shirts
starched collars (is this even done anymore?)
dress shoes
skinny jeans

That's just on the men's aisle - women have far more unnecessary and uncomfortable clothing items, which they don for "fashion/beauty/society" and maybe "themselves".

Pants are "comfortable enough" that the threat of a skirt to their masculinity is too powerful a force to overcome. If so chosen, they could go with baggy pants or baggy shorts, and there are lighter weight fabric options out there. But they won't be choosing them because of the comfort factor, they will have to embrace the silhouette a skirt creates, the notion of a single tube - the idea of it as a style choice - and as you said - "stop worrying their masculinity will suffer".

And the ultimate problem - something we don't bring up often enough - they do not know they have a choice.

I have a separate thread on comfort but I find male trousers uncomfortable. The material is stiff and compresses generally in the nether regions. Male underwear is thick, male socks are too thick, and brogues are heavy and claustrophobic for the feet. Shirts are fine but ties are awful. On the other side, heels can be very uncomfortable on pavements and leather ones are much less painful. I am getting to the stage where I will opt for lower chunkier heels and sacrifice a bit of elegance for the additional comfort, but I draw the line at a skirt and trainers. I find tights very comfortable but many women don't. A tight stretchy skirt is very tedious so best avoided. Women's trousers can be soft and perfectly comfortable in a way that men's are not, and a long cotton nightdress is simply the most comfortable thing you can wear in bed - no elastic anywhere. As we are not allowed to discuss underwear let me just say if you are not ambitious in the bosom department and wear the right size that too can be infinitely more comfortable than you would think. The things I find uncomfortable about cross-dressing are not things most women have to deal with - clip-on earrings and wigs. Of course women's clothes generally lack pockets and you need somewhere to carry your stuff - once you start using a handbag you realise how useful and convenient this is. Going commando is just gross. I have never hired a kilt - I have my own but I am told that kilt hire companies insist that you wear underwear and quite right too. I am a real Scotsman by ancestry, birth and upbringing and I don't feel the need to prove it - and how would going commando under a kilt prove that anyway? Even home alone in very hot weather I would not contemplate going commando in my dress.

[rivegauche]

In my opinion, the tipping point happens when men realize the comfort AND stop worrying their masculinity will suffer.

I honestly don't buy the comfort argument. I don't want to stray too down the path of things we shouldn't talk about - all I'll say is men shouldn't wear skirts commando. I don't think clothing is about comfort - it's about practicality and "proper attire for the occasion". That doesn't mean I don't dress for comfort, but you wouldn't have soooooo many uncomfortable clothing styles in mainstream culture such as:

neck ties
suits
white oxford shirts
starched collars (is this even done anymore?)
dress shoes
skinny jeans

That's just on the men's aisle - women have far more unnecessary and uncomfortable clothing items, which they don for "fashion/beauty/society" and maybe "themselves".

Pants are "comfortable enough" that the threat of a skirt to their masculinity is too powerful a force to overcome. If so chosen, they could go with baggy pants or baggy shorts, and there are lighter weight fabric options out there. But they won't be choosing them because of the comfort factor, they will have to embrace the silhouette a skirt creates, the notion of a single tube - the idea of it as a style choice - and as you said - "stop worrying their masculinity will suffer".

And the ultimate problem - something we don't bring up often enough - they do not know they have a choice.

I have a separate thread on comfort but I find male trousers uncomfortable. The material is stiff and compresses generally in the nether regions. Male underwear is thick, male socks are too thick, and brogues are heavy and claustrophobic for the feet. Shirts are fine but ties are awful. On the other side, heels can be very uncomfortable on pavements and leather ones are much less painful. I am getting to the stage where I will opt for lower chunkier heels and sacrifice a bit of elegance for the additional comfort, but I draw the line at a skirt and trainers. I find tights very comfortable but many women don't. A tight stretchy skirt is very tedious so best avoided. A blouse can differ from a shirt only in the buttoning but the ones with darts can be trickier to iron. On the other hand women's tops that are easier to iron or don't need ironing can be smarter and are acceptable in formal situations where the equivalent male tops are not. Women's trousers can be soft and perfectly comfortable in a way that men's are not, and a long cotton nightdress is simply the most comfortable thing you can wear in bed - no elastic anywhere. As we are not allowed to discuss underwear let me just say if you are not ambitious in the bosom department and wear the right size that too can be infinitely more comfortable than you would think. The things I find uncomfortable about cross-dressing are not things most women have to deal with - clip-on earrings and wigs. Of course women's clothes generally lack pockets and you need somewhere to carry your stuff - once you start using a handbag you realise how useful and convenient this is. Going commando is just gross. I have never hired a kilt - I have my own but I am told that kilt hire companies insist that you wear underwear and quite right too. I am a real Scotsman by ancestry, birth and upbringing and I don't feel the need to prove it - and how would going commando under a kilt prove that anyway? Even home alone in very hot weather I would not contemplate going commando in my dress.

[ScotL]

But utility kilts have been around - forever. 23 years if you consider the founding of Utilikilts as the launching point. Even those carry some stigma, although are much more accepted than plain skirts (though, besides family, I have yet to run into a negative reaction whilst skirted). But they aren't yet mainstream.

I’ll counter that 23 years isn’t forever unless that’s the length of time you’ve been waiting for something to happen. Then yes, it’s forever. But in terms of changing societal views on something so ingrained? I think it’s a drop in the ocean. Just my opinion.

Going commando under a kilt is not what I meant. I tried once cause why wouldn’t you. It was my kilt. But it was not at all what I find comfortable.

I’ll also counter that the current “goblin mode” extravaganza shows people do pick comfort over fashion. What feels good…. I have a feeling clothing manufacturers will be making clothing choices that are incorporating more stretchy fabrics instead of the stiff ones.

Wear cotton, non stretchy, movement limiting pants or pants that look similar but stretch and don’t inhibit movement.

You’re right though when you say men don’t know they have a choice. One cannot select an option if they don’t know it’s there.

[STEVIE]

Spurious may they be, if I were in the situation I'd wear the "uniform with a skirt" if the skirt was comfortable enough.

Sadly Coder, on this occasion your acceptance doesn't count. Conflicting interest and perhaps a tad pre-disposed too.

As for tipping point? It's a start isn't it? I think the trend is spreading and acceptance is growing. At the other end of the scale its been eroded by bigots who probably have their own hang ups.

There won't be a tipping point in the sense of a defined event, more likely a shift of attitude in a geological timeframe.
Celebrity validation, comfort, the breeze, the Kilt or any other justification anyone hides behind must cease to be relevant.
I wear a skirt, I wear a dress and no more than you have to justify a taste for wearing a full suit of the most macho lines possible.
Nothing will ever beat practice first, preach second and eventually tolerance will turn into acceptance eventually.
Steve.

[Grok]

Maybe I should be finding out exactly what the problem is and then look for instances where that has changed.

The change that has really occurred is the superficial relaxation of certain dress codes for men and boys.
Many employers will happily state a policy to allow men to wear skirts at work, PR magic.
Schools will hold themselves up as beacons of inclusion by having gender free uniform policies.
They do this in a safe and certain knowledge of the current status quo.

The official dress codes as virtue signaling, with very little risk to The Powers That Be. It being very unlikely that the unofficial dress code will be violated.

[crfriend]

It being very unlikely that the unofficial dress code will be violated.

And that's the one with teeth in it.

Want evidence? Just try donning a skirt if you're male and see how long the experiment lasts, and then double-check your HR records to make sure they haven't ticked the Trans-* box without your consent.

I'd not be willing to roll those dice.