Butchering the English Language

[rivegauche]

I suspect the level of literacy, and in this I refer to the fully literate who are capable of reading, comprehending, and writing, is almost certainly lower now than it was 50 years ago -- at least in the United States. The level of "functional illiteracy" is truly frightening, and the number of folks who can't even fill out a job application is truly horrifying.

So you made me look it up for here (NL). What we call being "functionally literate" are the reading/writing/arithmetic skills someone is expected to have after 4 years of secondary school, or about age 16. It's turns about that over the last 25 years the percentage of people who don't have that level has gone up from 9.5% to 12%. So yeah, it's gotten worse. Partially it's due to aging, which cuts literacy skills, so people who were borderline most of their lives become functionally illiterate eventually. But there are many students leaving school already functionally illiterate (around 5% apparently). The reasons are varied, but a common theme is that the parents aren't very literate and so the children don't get a good start and the school doesn't catch it before the kids leaves.

Fairly depressing all round.

Something to keep in mind though is compartmentalisation: people write differently depending on their target audience. And just because they write a particular way on twitter/whatsapp doesn't necessarily mean they always write that way.

If you are quoting figures like that you really need to specify the country as literacy varies from country to country. No info on your origins but our friends in the US tend to forget there are other countries in the world.

[crfriend]

If you are quoting figures like that you really need to specify the country as literacy varies from country to country. No info on your origins but our friends in the US tend to forget there are other countries in the world.

In my case, if I am not specifically calling out another country I am writing about the one I dwell in (not by choice, mind), the United States. Yes, literacy varies dramatically between different countries, and in large ones like the US can vary dramatically between different regions. For instance, my home state (Massachusetts) mandated that everyone learn to read in 1642 (specifically so people could read the Bible, which gives one an idea of the early state) and Connecticut followed suit in 1650. Other states in the region followed suit, so we have comparatively high rates of literacy in New England. In the deep south, however, secondary school was entirely optional until into the 20th Century, thus literacy rates are much lower there.

The main divide seemed to be around the prevalence of trade and industry versus agriculture, with commercial and industrialised areas having higher literacy rates than agrarian areas because of the additional demands of the complex nature of the former. Sadly, this has stuck with us pretty much since and shows little sign of going away.

[ScotL]

So you made me look it up for here (NL).

If you are quoting figures like that you really need to specify the country as literacy varies from country to country. No info on your origins but our friends in the US tend to forget there are other countries in the world.

I will obviously wait for RK to reply but I thought the (NL) meant the Netherlands.

[rode_kater]

I will obviously wait for RK to reply but I thought the (NL) meant the Netherlands.

Correct. I thought putting NL would be clear enough, apparently not. I'll edit the original.

[Sinned]

So, Carl, you say that you use UK English, but does that mean that you use the English spellings such as "realise" or "colour" ot the US versions? So in what other way do you mean "UK English"? Not criticising just seeking clarification. Of course even the most basic rules of grammar don't apply to spoken English. If you were to write down some of the things you actually say, it just seems nonsensical, like a different language.

All through school and later at University I had to write down lecture notes, very few handouts, so got used to writing n a sort of shorthand. I could also hold pen and pencil in the same hand and switch quickly between them without putting either of them down. Needs must. At the start of Grammar School we wrote with fountain pens ( remember those? ). My first had a rubber reservoir in it requiring replenishment from an ink bottle. Eventually I got one that used cartridges. I always used black ink, blue was too common. I do remember that there were cartridges with red and purple ink. I still have the pens. I do write to someone, he's somewhere that has no access to emails. The only downside is that because I don't write as much as I used to my hand tires quickly.

[crfriend]

So, Carl, you say that you use UK English, but does that mean that you use the English spellings such as "realise" or "colour" ot the US versions? So in what other way do you mean "UK English"? Not criticising just seeking clarification. Of course even the most basic rules of grammar don't apply to spoken English. If you were to write down some of the things you actually say, it just seems nonsensical, like a different language.

When I am writing (or typing), spellings are the UK versions, and I also adhere to as many of the UK rules as I know such as the one where companies and groups are known in the plural not the singular the way they are in US English.

The written language is very different from the written language, and a whole lot more versatile as one is not constrained to what one get get out in speech in one breath.

At the start of Grammar School we wrote with fountain pens ( remember those? ). My first had a rubber reservoir in it requiring replenishment from an ink bottle. Eventually I got one that used cartridges. I always used black ink, blue was too common. I do remember that there were cartridges with red and purple ink. I still have the pens.

I used a fountain pen throughout secondary school -- out of choice -- and for some years afterwards, with a common colour of either electric blue or purple. Sadly, the pens were likely lost in the debacle of 2015 and have not surfaced. If I can ever get proper control over my hands I may look at acquiring another one. They are such expressive instruments!

[r.m.anderson]

crfriend:
I used a fountain pen throughout secondary school -- out of choice -- and for some years afterwards, with a common colour of either electric blue or purple. Sadly, the pens were likely lost in the debacle of 2015 and have not surfaced. If I can ever get proper control over my hands I may look at acquiring another one. They are such expressive instruments!

And glory be if you made a mistake - no white out to fix it - but then again that is another outmoded communication method (typewriter) !

Just think in ancient times of a scribe making a mistake on a scroll -or- a chisel smith etching on virgin stone - - -

And the INK used was harder than hell to get out - lots of bleach sometimes rendering the fabric to shreads !

Yes ! a lost art of cursive writing done with fountain pen !

[Uncle Al]

The written language is very different from the written language, and a whole lot more
versatile as one is not constrained to what one get get out in speech in one breath.

.. Did you mean 'The written language is very different from the SPOKEN language
or did you mean "The SPOKEN language is very different from the written language"
Also, did you mean 'what one CAN get out in speech' instead of 'what one get get out in speech'

(For me, 'Can Can' is dance music at the Folies Bergere, in Paris )

I can, usually, figure out what you're saying when you write but, with this statement,
I just don't understand what you're trying to say

Uncle Al

[geron]

So, Carl, you say that you use UK English, but does that mean that you use the English spellings such as "realise" or "colour" ot the US versions?

I may have been this way before, but -ise spellings are not universal in UK English. Many authorities -- including the university presses of Oxford and Cambridge (and hence the Oxford English Dictionaries, etc.) prefer the -ize spelling in most such cases, because they are derived from Greek words where the z represents a Greek zeta. The -z- spelling has the extra advantage that it represents our normal pronunciation. However, -ise spellings are preferred for words which have reached us from French, such as advertise.

On the other side of the balance sheet, one word which is definitely entitled to an s in English is analyse, because it's an s (sigma) in the Greek.

[crfriend]

.. Did you mean 'The written language is very different from the SPOKEN language
or did you mean "The SPOKEN language is very different from the written language"
Also, did you mean 'what one CAN get out in speech' instead of 'what one get get out in speech'

Heh. Al caught me not only stuttering, but also tripping over my words. Both happen, but fortunately reasonably rarely. Written and spoken were intended, and the operative word in the last part was "breath" because it's no fun if one runs out of wind before getting to the full stop.

[Myopic Bookworm]

I may have been this way before, but -ise spellings are not universal in UK English. Many authorities -- including the university presses of Oxford and Cambridge (and hence the Oxford English Dictionaries, etc.) prefer the -ize spelling in most such cases, because they are derived from Greek words where the z represents a Greek zeta. The -z- spelling has the extra advantage that it represents our normal pronunciation. However, -ise spellings are preferred for words which have reached us from French, such as advertise.

Just got to put in another cheer for traditional British -ize spellings!

[Kilted Musician]

.

[TSH]

So far, this thread has just been about the written language. What about spoken dialogue? That's even worse. Just think about the word "like", talk to... anyone, really, then count the many times they use the word as a filler, to quote someone/something, or making an estimate.

[rode_kater]

It's filler and different people have different ones. Sometimes even the word f*ck, though that's pretty rare these days and they usually grow out of it.

I remember doing a public speaking course and the first task was talk about your keys for two minutes (no preparation). Afterwards people tell you what your filler word was. Stupid thing is, you don't actually remember saying it because you're too busy thinking about what to say next. It is something you can unlearn though, mostly by relaxing a speaking more slowly so you don't need them. But they do act as an important social signal to others that you're not finished speaking.

[geron]

So far, this thread has just been about the written language. What about spoken dialogue? That's even worse.

One irritant for me at present is people who prefix all their answers with "So..." when being interviewed on radio or TV. It doesn't do anything except to make them sound condescending.

Having got that off my chest, I'd better add quickly that your opening "So", TSH, is not the same sort of so at all!