Men and ice cream

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Do you enjoy ice cream at night more so than other times of the day.

Yes
12
48%
No
10
40%
I do not eat ice cream
3
12%
 
Total votes: 25

STEVIE
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Re: Men and ice cream

Post by STEVIE » Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:47 am

Hi Dillon,
No worries about a genuine question. The Scot/Italian fusion has a very long history. However, the big influx was at the turning of the 19th Century.
The Italian immigrants were not wealthy but very industrious. Some became Ice Cream sellers and Fish and Chip vendors. This was successful enough to create a stereotype based purely on their Latin origins. There are quite a few of these businesses which still survive and are still run by direct descendants of the founders.
The family that i am talking about would be fourth generation Italian. In reality they are just as Scottish as I am.
The success of their business has less to do with their lineage than the hard work which they put into it. As for the ice cream, I am not privvy to their recipes but I would doubt that they have remained completely untweeked in more than a hundred years. It is still to die for though!
As for racism in Scotland today, I don't think we have a huge probem with it. The climate gives most of us enough hassle to be going on with.
I hope this kind of clarifies.
Steve.

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Re: Men and ice cream

Post by pelmut » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:27 am

dillon wrote:... From this side of the pond, you all seem pretty much “lily-white” to me.
It is largely a matter of your starting point; the further away someone comes from, the less subtle will be the distinction.  To the average ignorant Englishman there is no difference between Americans and Canadians or Australians and New Zealanders - but nearer home our locals clearly distinguish beween relatively harmless 'furriners' from Radstock and the dangerous outlaws from Peasedown (less than 5 miles apart).
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Re: Men and ice cream

Post by dillon » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:45 am

I wouldn’t discern “racial“ differences between “white” Americans and Canadians either, and I never meant to imply anything about racism on anyone’s part. My poorly expressed question really goes, I suppose, to the perception of “race” as a construct. In the US, we generally apply the construct to broad, though still scientifically invalid, distinctions in physical characteristics. My question really goes to broader European indigeneity, prior to the widespread immigration from Africa, Asia Minor, and SW Asia. Race, of course, is a human construct, but it permeates American culture because of our social and legal history, for better or worse, right or wrong. I sense it is somewhat the same but yet different in Europe. But my question is, specifically, whether Europeans have traditionally made a “racial” distinction between Northern and Southern European indigeneity? Or between other varied regions, eg the British Isles, Ireland, Scandinavia, Balkans, etc. Just trying to understand the differences or similarities between the way we each apply the racial construct. I am indulging my cultural curiosity here, but trying to tread carefully. Thanks.
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pelmut
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Re: Men and ice cream

Post by pelmut » Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:08 pm

It is difficult to generalise, but it has struck me that Americans seem to put a higher priority on 'race', as opposed to 'nationality' than the English do (I don't know about the Scots, Irish or Welsh).  We tend to think of a black man as just a black man, rather than someone whose ancestors may have originated from Africa (or India or some Asian countries which we don't know much about).  He may still have family customs related to his origins or he may be fully assimilated and speak with a strong local accent, never having ventured more than a few miles from his English birthplace - you will only discover that by having a conversation with him, if you are sufficiently interested.

Grammar and accent carry more weight in Britain than apparent family origins, possibly because of the remnants of the 'class structure' still lurking in the background: someone with strongly foreign facial features who speaks good English is much more likely to be accepted as English than someone who looks English but whose accent or grammar marks them out as a foreigner.
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Re: Men and ice cream

Post by crfriend » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:13 pm

dillon wrote:My poorly expressed question really goes, I suppose, to the perception of “race” as a construct. In the US, we generally apply the construct to broad, though still scientifically invalid, distinctions in physical characteristics.
I believe that the divergent notions of race and ethnicity may be getting confused here. "Race" is typically used where there are wide variances in outward appearance between individuals, the most striking ones being stark difference in skin colour. "Ethnicity" refers to folks of the same race but originating from different regions and who generally appear to look rather similar.

In the ice-cream shop example, we're dealing with the same race (Caucasian) but differing ethnicities (UK born/bred and Italian descent).
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Sinned
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Re: Men and ice cream

Post by Sinned » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:36 pm

I think that Steve's use of the terms "cliched and possibly racist" is quite correct. Living in Scarborough when first married, there was a family of Italian descent, the Jaconelli's, that made and sold ice cream locally, something that stereotypically Italians were noted for. Not true any longer, of course, but racial stereotypes sometimes do persist and political correctness abounds. Don't lose sleep about it.
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STEVIE
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Re: Men and ice cream

Post by STEVIE » Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:03 pm

Thanks Sinned
This only serves to remind me that I owe myself a visit to them as soon as I am able.
The family name is Crola and my Grandparents were also friends with them. The original shop was on the street where my father was born but moved in the 60s by about a quarter mile or so.
It has been there ever since.
Steve.

dillon
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Re: Men and ice cream

Post by dillon » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:15 am

crfriend wrote:
dillon wrote:My poorly expressed question really goes, I suppose, to the perception of “race” as a construct. In the US, we generally apply the construct to broad, though still scientifically invalid, distinctions in physical characteristics.
I believe that the divergent notions of race and ethnicity may be getting confused here. "Race" is typically used where there are wide variances in outward appearance between individuals, the most striking ones being stark difference in skin colour. "Ethnicity" refers to folks of the same race but originating from different regions and who generally appear to look rather similar.

In the ice-cream shop example, we're dealing with the same race (Caucasian) but differing ethnicities (UK born/bred and Italian descent).
Exactly. I was simply curious whether legacy Europeans, I.e. those not of Asian or African ancestry, discern differences among indigenous Europeans that they would consider “racial” but which Americans might simply see as “ethnic.” I use the term “race” in a non-technical sense, since there is no conclusive genetic basis for the idea of race. I’m curious how characteristics we associate with race, as a construct, might vary between Europe and America.
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Daryl
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Re: Men and ice cream

Post by Daryl » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:27 am

dillon wrote:I wouldn’t discern “racial“ differences between “white” Americans and Canadians either, and I never meant to imply anything about racism on anyone’s part. My poorly expressed question really goes, I suppose, to the perception of “race” as a construct. In the US, we generally apply the construct to broad, though still scientifically invalid, distinctions in physical characteristics.
Just barely. I was astounded to discover that American colour-coding of "race" is so pervasive even white-skinned people consider themselves non-white if their family heritage includes any combination of American native and/or Spanish or Portugese.

Question: since Charlize Therone emigrated to the U.S., is she now an African-American?

We never hear "African Canadian" up here. Never. We do hear "Jamaican" or "black". It's definitely the unique history of the U.S. that has led to the prominence of colour-coding, as far as I can tell.
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Fred in Skirts
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Re: Men and ice cream

Post by Fred in Skirts » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:58 pm

Here I thought this topic was about "Ice Cream". But it seems that it is now about race.... As far as I am concerned we are all the same race "HUMAN!"
Now lets get back to the flavor of the week... My choices are coffee and chocolate.
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Re: Men and ice cream

Post by dillon » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:11 pm

Fred in Skirts wrote:Here I thought this topic was about "Ice Cream". But it seems that it is now about race.... As far as I am concerned we are all the same race "HUMAN!"
Now lets get back to the flavor of the week... My choices are coffee and chocolate.
Well said, Fred.

In my defense, I was trying to get at the root of a statement that seemed peculiar, but maybe we can’t discuss anything that leads to discomfort. Forgive me for asking about something I didn’t understand.
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Re: Men and ice cream

Post by dillon » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:30 pm

Daryl wrote:
dillon wrote:I wouldn’t discern “racial“ differences between “white” Americans and Canadians either, and I never meant to imply anything about racism on anyone’s part. My poorly expressed question really goes, I suppose, to the perception of “race” as a construct. In the US, we generally apply the construct to broad, though still scientifically invalid, distinctions in physical characteristics.
Just barely. I was astounded to discover that American colour-coding of "race" is so pervasive even white-skinned people consider themselves non-white if their family heritage includes any combination of American native and/or Spanish or Portugese.

Question: since Charlize Therone emigrated to the U.S., is she now an African-American?

We never hear "African Canadian" up here. Never. We do hear "Jamaican" or "black". It's definitely the unique history of the U.S. that has led to the prominence of colour-coding, as far as I can tell.
I would regard Spanish (Iberian) and Portuguese (also Iberian) as “white,” and merely wanted to understand how the construct of “race” exists in Europe, particularly within Europeans. Perhaps you inadvertently shed some light on the matter. Canada might use the concept of African-Canadian had they held slaves past their motherland’s abolition of the institution, as the US did by a few decades. In the US, the enslavement of Africans, along with the genocide of the indigenous peoples, are things for which the US must atone. Canada, I suppose, must atone only for the latter.
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Re: Men and ice cream

Post by beachlion » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:09 am

For centuries the countries of Europe were surrounded by borders. With that form of isolation countries could develop a certain identity of their own. Only for a few decades you can travel without being stopped at border checkpoints. It will take a long time for somebody to see a person from another country as a fellow European and not as a foreigner. I don't think "race" was used correctly but still a lot of clichés are sticking to people from certain countries. The USA is a much less compartimented entity than Europe so in general the Americans will not see people from other states as foreigners in the same way Europeans do.

A very helpful cliché is that Italians are good ice cream makers. ;)
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Uncle Al
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Re: Men and ice cream

Post by Uncle Al » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:54 am

Dutch Chocolate & Butter Pecan are my 2 favorites :D

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Kirbstone
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Re: Men and ice cream

Post by Kirbstone » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:24 am

On this small relatively underpopulated island everybody not born here is ''foreign'. Even those born here but of foreign lineage are regarded as being at least in part 'foreign'. We have a half-Indian Prime Minister, for instance.

Having lived and worked abroad for 31 years I returned in the mid- 90s to an Ireland much changed from the one I left in the 60s. We now have a relatively high density of resident foreigners, who among other things, practically run our hospitals.

There are degrees of 'foreignness' and the resident Brits, of whom MOH is one are the least 'foreign'. Each group tends to socialize within their own community, so a a dentist I still come across Eastern Europeans, Brazilians and Africans who speak little English, although they have been here for years.

Of necessity however, a high degree of tolerance prevails, but there are still instances of intolerance which generally manifests itself in the lower end of the Social Spectrum. Emergency treatment of GBH victims is not, however confined the immigrants.....drugs and alcohol-fuelled violence is seen among the home population, too.

However, judging from the numeracy of thriving ice-cream outlets, I expect they all have a love of the stuff. That much they do have in common.

Tom
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