Life in the UK

[moonshadow]

Saw this video and thought with all those members here who live east of the Atlantic, I'd post it and see if you all can relate....

https://youtu.be/ATjMxH3-e4Y

Couple of things I noticed...

1) Many older American houses that I'm aware of have the washer and dryer in the kitchen. Just from the looks of things, this is because the houses may have been built before running water, or back in the day before people had clothes washing appliances. The kitchen often has at least hot and cold water lines, and drainage available thus making the addition of a clothes washer possible without having to add on an extra room. These older houses may or may not have a dryer as the older houses were probably only set up with a small 60 amp electric service which doesn't afford the capacity for an electric clothes dryer. Often times, folks who live in those houses will hang their clothes out on the line. I had a neighbor in Pulaski who spliced a dryer outlet off his electric range outlet. He just knew not to run them both together. This is very illegal, but hey... what ever works for him.... More modern houses that I've seen have the washer and dryer in a mud room, or basement. Single wide trailers (mobile homes) often have the washer and dryer in the kitchen, those I've seen some older ones with a place for them in the hallway by the back door. Doublewides normally have a separate room for clothes washing appliances.

2) Regarding the "bathroom", again in older houses an "indoor outhouse" was normally added on over the years. When the house was first built, there was probably an outhouse somewhere in the back yard. Baths may have been taken every so often in a wash tub normally in the kitchen. The modern day standard seems to combine the bath tub, toilet, and vanity sink all in the same room.

3) By code, all of our electrical outlets are three prong, a hot (120v) a neutral, and a ground. In kitchens and bathrooms, they are supposed to be GFCI protected. However once again, in older houses, it's not uncommon to find ungrounded two prong receptacles.

--One question I've always wondered about you fellas over there... my understanding is you all have 230volt outlets. Is this 115 volts on each side? (measured to ground) or is it 230 volts straight up on one side to a neutral?

The little switch that turns the outlet off is pretty neat, although we'd probably just get in the habit of leaving them on.

4) Separate hot and cold taps are common in older buildings, also some businesses seem to like them. Personally I can't stand them. They offer no means of temperature regulation.

5) On air conditioning, as far as I can tell, pretty much all modern houses are built with central air now. Older farm houses were typically built under enough shade trees to help keep the house cool. They also had large windows that could be opened to allow for cross circulation. Modern suburban houses in the concrete jungle are a little harder to cool naturally, thus enter the world of artificial air conditioning. Window AC units are normally employed in older homes without central air. Still running on that 60 amp service, people have figured out that they can run 60,000 BTU's worth of air conditioners on one 15 amp circuit with the help of a well placed penny... and we've got the burned down houses to prove it!

[Stevie D]

Saw this video and thought with all those members here who live east of the Atlantic, I'd post it and see if you all can relate....


--One question I've always wondered about you fellas over there... my understanding is you all have 230volt outlets. Is this 115 volts on each side? (measured to ground) or is it 230 volts straight up on one side to a neutral?

It's actually 240 volts, 3 phase AC, all on the Live pin, the other is Neutral and the top (middle pin) is Earth (ground).

[moonshadow]

It's actually 240 volts, 3 phase AC, all on the Live pin, the other is Neutral and the top (middle pin) is Earth (ground).

Oh okay. Although I doubt you all have three phase power on a single leg, that would cause quite a short circuit.

We have high voltage too (277 volts on a single leg), although never to a neutral. Always to another phase of 277, also I don't know of any residential houses wired up for 440/480 3ph.

On the household level we have single phase 120/240 volt service. 120 for little household appliances, TV sets, computers, lighting. 240 (120 on each leg - no neutral) for bigger things like heat pumps, water heaters, electric ranges, electric clothes dryers, some window air conditioners.

I wonder, in your houses, do you all have another 240 volts of power on a different phase, to run larger appliances at 440/480 volts?

If I ever visit the UK I'll bring my meter! I've got lots of curiosities!

[hoborob]

I think your terminology is slightly off Steve. 3 phase power has 3 live conductors. The correct terminology I believe would be 230V single phase with one Power Pin, 1 Neutral Pin, and 1 Ground Pin. I am curious though if the house feed might be 460/230V or something else in the UK.

[Kirbstone]

Not that I know a lot about these things, but our 'normal' domestic 240 volt power is not three phase and plugs for almost everything are limited to 13 amps. Outlets for electric cookers and the like are a much higher amperage, but are directly connected with no removable plug, as such, still 240 volts, though. All circuits are tripped, so the slightest surge detected will inactivate that circuit, thus protecting against electrocution, fire &c.

The affected circuit is easily identified looking at the trip switches on the fuse board.

Three phase on the other hand is available for workshops and such and delivers well over 400 volts for driving big saws & lathes & things. I also note that big church organs have three phase 435 volt supply for driving all those stops & massive pipes to make the building shake. I was let loose on one this morning!

As to Air-con, We have it in each operatory at work, but domestically we don't bother. It seldom gets hot enough here and it's always cool at nights.

Tom.

[hoborob]

OK I have been through the UK a few times on my way to and from Italy and Bahrain, actually stayed the night a few days after 9/11 because our flight in landed about 5 minutes after our ticketed flight left for the US. Here in the US typical residential power is actually properly called 240V center tapped neutral for a 240V/120V residential system with breakers set up on either side for values up to 20A single pole 120V or 30A and up for 2 pole 240V circuits. The 120V circuits are normally either 15A or 20A circuits and are used for normal plug in power circuits with Kitchen and Bathroom circuits required to be on GFCI trip circuits. the 240V circuits start at 30A and can go up to 60A for Ranges (Stoves) and Clothes Dryers.

[pelmut]

The national distribution system in the UK is six-phase delta at 132 kV, coming down to three-phase delta 33 kV or 11 kV locally. That is then distributed by a variety of different systems:

Three-phase star or delta 440V for industry.

Three-phase star local distribution at nominal 440V with individual premises taking single-phase-and-neutral at 240 V from one of the three phases, with the load roughly balanced between premises so as to minimise the current in the neutral (saves copper).

Two-phase local distribution using only two of the available phases and neutral from the above three-phase system. Individual streets use different pairs of phases, so as to balance the load on the three-phase system. (Uses available cables from older two-phase and D.C. distribution systems.)

Two-phase local distribution at 480V centre-tapped with individual premises taking single-phase-and-neutral at 240 V from one of the phases, with the load roughly balanced so as to minimise the current in the neutral. (Mainly found in small villages as it allows the use of a cheaper local supply transformer with a single-phase primary connected across two of the phases of the three-phase 11 kV delta system.)

In all domestic premises the only supply available to the consumer will be nominal 240 V single-phase with neutral and a separate earthing pin. Most UK socket outlets and all lighting circuits have a single switch in the live, the neutral is not normally switched. Until legislation forced the use of insulating sleeves on the roots of the plug pins, it was just about possible to touch the live pin when withdrawing the plug, so people of my age have the ingrained habit of switching off the socket before changing plugs. Some domestic equipment is permanently connected to an outlet box, and in this case both the live and the neutral must be switched.

[Orange Apple]

The national distribution system in the UK is six-phase delta at 132 kV, coming down to three-phase delta 33 kV or 11 kV locally.
...
In all domestic premises the only supply available to the consumer will be nominal 240 V single-phase with neutral and a separate earthing pin. Most UK socket outlets and all lighting circuits have a single switch in the live, the neutral is not normally switched. Until legislation forced the use of insulating sleeves on the roots of the plug pins, it was just about possible to touch the live pin when withdrawing the plug, so people of my age have the ingrained habit of switching off the socket before changing plugs. Some domestic equipment is permanently connected to an outlet box, and in this case both the live and the neutral must be switched.

Thank you very much for that explanation. I may be the only one here who appreciated it, but I actually did a little web research last night when the topic came up and was not able to find a good summary of what you told us in a few paragraphs. For me it brought back memories of the EE class long ago that covered this material (but for the US system).

I had always wondered why the switch on UK plugs. Makes perfect sense that 240 volts and a design that makes it easy to touch the metal would suggest switching it off before changing plugs.

One side effect of using 240 volts instead of 110 . . . The most powerful hot pot I can buy in the US is 1500 watts because of the current load at 110 volts. I have seen heftier ones in Europe, but of course they won't work here (or would, but at half power). I want this because it would get my coffee to me perhaps two whole minutes sooner in the morning, which would make a huge difference in my life. I've even considered jury-rigging a US 240 volt circuit and installing a UK-style plug in the kitchen.

[moonshadow]

Thank you very much for that explanation. I may be the only one here who appreciated it, but I actually did a little web research last night when the topic came up and was not able to find a good summary of what you told us in a few paragraphs. For me it brought back memories of the EE class long ago that covered this material (but for the US system).

I too came up short on my internet searches, and pelmuts response was much appreciated!

One side effect of using 240 volts instead of 110 . . . The most powerful hot pot I can buy in the US is 1500 watts because of the current load at 110 volts. I have seen heftier ones in Europe, but of course they won't work here (or would, but at half power). I want this because it would get my coffee to me perhaps two whole minutes sooner in the morning, which would make a huge difference in my life. I've even considered jury-rigging a US 240 volt circuit and installing a UK-style plug in the kitchen.

Mmmmm.... not sure if it would be worth the effort, nor advisable. Not sure what kind of coffee pot you have, but I can tell you that if you connect a 110 volt coffee pot to a 240 volt source, you're going to blow the element. Also consider that apparently UK 240 is slightly different from US, as they have the 240 on one leg (pin in UK terms), In the US we only get 240 when we measure 120 of different phases across two legs (pins), unless you have 440/480 service. But I've never EVER seen a 480 volt coffee pot, even in places that do coffee quite regularly.... like Starbucks. That is not to say they don't exist, but I'm just saying they are VERY uncommon. There is also the matter of the differing hertz, 60/50. Not sure how that would matter on an element, or a motor. Might have more to do with electronics, but I'm not really sure.

I suppose you could look into a commercial coffee brewer. Though I think even most of them are 120 volt, just on a dedicated circuit. I may have worked on a few 240 volt coffee pots, I really can't recall. Even so, it would be 240, as in 120 on each side, still whether it's 120/120 or 240/n, it seems ohms law should work out the same, or pretty close. They work differently than household coffee brewers. They actually have a tank filled with water that an element heats similar to a household water heater. Once the water is heated to temp, you press the "brew" button, and a solenoid opens to allow hot water to trickle over the grinds. A small pot sits on a little hot plate that is probably just 120 volt to keep the coffee hot. This type of coffee brewer is overkill for the household user though, unless you're drinking a pot of coffee every 10 minutes all day long. Be prepared as these brewers require their own water supply.

Why not just turn the coffee pot on 2 minutes sooner?

Or, if you insist... try this bad ass coffee brewer: http://restauranttory.com/l/fetco-doubl ... oC7MHw_wcB

24,100 watts (24.1KW)
480 volt 3PH
200 lbs

You would be the Tim Allen of coffee brewing!

And perhaps Carl would change your SC title to Barista Extraordinaire!

[pelmut]

The higher voltage in the UK is not just due to perverseness; copper prices are higher here, so it makes economic sense to use a higher voltage and lower current. Our domestic distribution units have circuit breakers for 6 amps on the lighting circuits and 32 amps on the (two, usually) ring mains that feed the power points [outlets]. Heavy loads, such as a cooker or shower, will each have a circuit to themselves and breakers rated at 45 amps. The whole lot is often protected by a single RCD (residual current device) which trips in the event of a fault to earth on any circuit - better quality installations have a separate supply for the lights, so you aren't plunged into darkness by a faulty appliance (or a false trip).

Our higher voltage also accounts for our apparent obsession with electrical safety, it is significantly more dangerous. In theory 120 V can kill you just as dead as 240 V, but there is a wide range of skin resistance and victims in the mid range might survive the lower voltage but succumb to the higher one. From personal experience, back-of-the-hand contact with the 400v DC rail of a valve amplifier gives a much bigger jolt than similar contact with a 240 V mains terminal - and leaves you with a wisp of smoke and the smell of burning flesh. By comparison, a 120v shock is just a warning to be more careful.

[moonshadow]

such as a cooker

Is that what you all call an electric range? (stove top for the old schoolers) Most of ours have an oven underneath, do your "cookers" also include an oven?

Then only time I've ever heard "cooker" used here is when we are referring to a pressure cooker, which is a pot with a sealed lid you typically heat on a range. When I worked at a KFC as a teenager, they called the pressure fryers "cookers", although I always, and still consider that somewhat slang. They are pressure fryers. Interestingly, an open fryer was never called a "cooker" despite that all fryers essentially "cook" food. Open fryers were just called "fryers", and pressure fryers were called "cookers". Not sure why that was.

From a technical standpoint, I hold a difference between pressure fryers and pressure cookers. While they are similar in how the cook foods under pressure, they are different beast all together with regards to process and safety aspects. Pressure fryers cook product in pressurized oil running about 350 degrees F. Pressure cookers cook product in superheated water, which can reach 250 degrees before boiling. Pressure fryers are considerably more dangerous, and I've never seen a household version of one.

Our higher voltage also accounts for our apparent obsession with electrical safety, it is significantly more dangerous. In theory 120 V can kill you just as dead as 240 V, but there is a wide range of skin resistance and victims in the mid range might survive the lower voltage but succumb to the higher one. From personal experience, back-of-the-hand contact with the 400v DC rail of a valve amplifier gives a much bigger jolt than similar contact with a 240 V mains terminal - and leaves you with a wisp of smoke and the smell of burning flesh. By comparison, a 120v shock is just a warning to be more careful.

240 on one leg will knock the sh!t out of you! But true 120 isn't anything to mess around with either. Both can be lethal. I think one of the bigger dangers with higher voltages is the arc flash. Then when you consider dead shorting 277 volts to another 277 volt phase, it's like a shot gun going off.

Virtually all of our newer stores are going to 480 service. Personally I think it's a mistake and they should stick with 208 3PH. It seems elements and motors last longer on the lower voltages. There's also the safety issue. We have 480 volt grilles and ranges where the thermostat breaks the high voltage 480 directly. This puts the end user within VERY close proximity to the 277 volt potential. 208 doesn't seem to be as "loud" as 480. Whereas 480 literally "blows up".... 208 tends to just "burn out".

[pelmut]

such as a cooker

Is that what you all call an electric range? (stove top for the old schoolers) Most of ours have an oven underneath, do your "cookers" also include an oven?

A cooker used to be an all-in-one appliance, usually with an oven underneath and four circular hotplates or rings (a range?) on top; a direct mimc of its gas-fuelled predecessor. Sometimes there was a grill under the hotplates and sometimes that was fitted with a door and could double-up as a second smaller oven. Nowadays there is a move towards separate hotplates and ovens, which can be fitted in different parts of the kitchen.

[Fred in Skirts]

A cooker used to be an all-in-one appliance, usually with an oven underneath and four circular hotplates or rings (a range?) on top; a direct mimc of its gas-fuelled predecessor. Sometimes there was a grill under the hotplates and sometimes that was fitted with a door and could double-up as a second smaller oven. Nowadays there is a move towards separate hotplates and ovens, which can be fitted in different parts of the kitchen.

The same here. We still call what you call the hot plates, "burners", again a carry over of the gas range. To us a hot plate is a separate single burner device that can be packed away when not in use and when needed taken out and plugged in to the outlet. Some of the high end ranges have a grill built in. This is an electric element under an iron or steel grill plate with a slide out grease catcher under it. On some models the grill can be swapped out for a griddle plate. Depending on need at the time.

Fred

[Sinned]

I hope that the following is right and if not some one correct me. We use the concept of rings in domestic so there would be a ring for each floor. Since it hasn't been mentioned yet - lighting uses the same voltage and there are usually separate ring circuits for upstairs and downstairs. Lighting never used to have an earth lead so just had live and neutral but modern systems now seem to include an earth lead now. PVC sheath colours have been red for live, blue for neutral and a green/yellow stripe for earth but in the true spirit of if it broke don't fix it the red live is now becoming brown live. Wall switches generally work only one light , 1 gang, but it is possible to have a light controlled by more than one switch, 2 gang. We had one house which had a kitchen leading onto a dining room and then leading onto a living room. Coming into the kitchen from the outside was a 2 gang switch for the light, the switch plate by the door kitchen/dining room had two switches on it, a 2 gang match for the door one and a two gang for the dining room light. The switch plate dining room/living room had a 2 gang for dining room and a 2 gang for the living room. Finally the switch plate from the living room/hall had a 2 gang match for the corresponding dining room/living room one. All fair and good until we wanted to change the light in the dining room and there were so many wires coming into the junction box that it was really only by trial and error that we got the right combination otherwise the kitchen switch was turning the living room light on and so on. So domestic circuits should in theory be straightforward but seldom are.

Cookers used to be standalone with grill, hobs and cooker. The grill could be either high-level, at eye level at the top of the cooker or low level between the hobs and the oven. Now as has been said the hobs and oven tend to be separate giving more flexibility in kitchen layout.

Oh and whilst not illegal the ordinary person used to be able to do their own repairs and extensions to the domestic system but nowadays there is some dissuasion of this this and some work has been made illegal so only a qualified electrician can do the work since what is allowed gradually changes. Nevertheless we have had a conservatory built recently and I put the ring main in myself and tested it since that was a simple installation. There is no overhead lighting in it so I didn't need to bother about that.

Modern houses very rarely have a basement.

[Orange Apple]

One side effect of using 240 volts instead of 110 . . . The most powerful hot pot I can buy in the US is 1500 watts because of the current load at 110 volts. I have seen heftier ones in Europe, but of course they won't work here (or would, but at half power). I want this because it would get my coffee to me perhaps two whole minutes sooner in the morning, which would make a huge difference in my life. I've even considered jury-rigging a US 240 volt circuit and installing a UK-style plug in the kitchen.

Mmmmm.... not sure if it would be worth the effort, nor advisable. Not sure what kind of coffee pot you have, but I can tell you that if you connect a 110 volt coffee pot to a 240 volt source, you're going to blow the element. Also consider that apparently UK 240 is slightly different from US, as they have the 240 on one leg (pin in UK terms), In the US we only get 240 when we measure 120 of different phases across two legs (pins), unless you have 440/480 service. But I've never EVER seen a 480 volt coffee pot, even in places that do coffee quite regularly.... like Starbucks. That is not to say they don't exist, but I'm just saying they are VERY uncommon. There is also the matter of the differing hertz, 60/50. Not sure how that would matter on an element, or a motor. Might have more to do with electronics, but I'm not really sure.

I was being mostly sarcastic. It takes about five minutes for my hot pot to heat in the morning. (I heat water in a hot pot then brew the coffee in a French press.) So double the power and I save a whopping 2.5 minutes. Since another alternative would be to just use the automatic timer on the coffee pot, I could have my coffee earlier if I wanted. It's just the idea of a UK-style plug installed in my kitchen for the sole purpose of plugging in a UK-style more-powerful hot pot that intrigues me.

Remember that we're talking about a heating element here. No motors; nothing fancy; just a resistive heating element. No, I would not plug a pot designed for 110v into a 240v source; the results would be predictable. And I am not interested in a 480 v hotpot for home use. The frequency difference, especially just between 50 Hz and 60 Hz is not going to matter to a heating element.

It's an extension of my mentality of wearing a skirt because I can ... Having a UK-style plug in a US kitchen would just be "interesting".