Difficulties with partners

[crfriend]

I'm going to make a casual observation here, and I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, but based on some of the stories on this website, in addition to some general online searches, it is revealed to me, that in the majority view among women in general, when ask the question, "do you think men should be free to wear skirts if he chooses", most women do indeed agree that he should be free to do so, however that said, many of those same women also point out "but I wouldn't date one who does".

This is a value point in wearing a skirt publicly especially if one is "unattached". The skirt serves as an excellent "Bozo filter" in that women who cannot think outside the narrow confines of "normalcy" (read, oppressively "average" and "mundane") won't be attracted to you; they'll self-select out. Of course you will attract some real oddballs, but those can be dealt with on your terms instead of them dealing with you on theirs (or trying to). In this mode, one can be rigid and inflexible -- to be able to hold his ground with dignity and pride instead of cowering under the cover of "compromise".

It's worth noting that anybody who has really succeeded at something, or who has actually effected a change in the world -- however small -- is by nature abnormal. If we were all "average" then nothing great would ever happen. Rise above the average. Dare to be different.

[moonshadow]

This is a value point in wearing a skirt publicly especially if one is "unattached". The skirt serves as an excellent "Bozo filter" in that women who cannot think outside the narrow confines of "normalcy" (read, oppressively "average" and "mundane") won't be attracted to you; they'll self-select out. Of course you will attract some real oddballs, but those can be dealt with on your terms instead of them dealing with you on theirs (or trying to). In this mode, one can be rigid and inflexible -- to be able to hold his ground with dignity and pride instead of cowering under the cover of "compromise".

And that answers why most men won't wear skirts. Generally, men are desperate to look good for women. It's all they think about, and most wouldn't dare do anything that might make them seem unattractive to the opposite sex. Even men who are already attached worry about chasing off their wife, and failing to find a replacement. A stack of skirting photos roaming the internet of a man in a skirt may haunt him for life. Really, everyone is shallow to some extent.

It's the one case where model of supply and demand fails... after all there are more women in the world then men, and yet a hundred men will fight over one woman. When women see a skirted man, I feel most don't see the brave, stylish individual that we see when we look at each others photos and look at ourselves in the mirror. They see an odd ball that will breed them with possible male skirt wearing children. They want conformity, because conformity is stable and puts food on the table.

It's interesting that many women prefer the buff, rough and tumble, macho type of man, however then they get bent out of shape because women, in their infinite wisdom fail to realize these "hot studs" are also going to be in big demand with other women too, and men, being what they are will generally go after anything that shows an interest. Then these wives act hurt and surprised when the "trophy husband" cheats on the her, and when the "trophy husband" beats the snot out of the her.

Women want men who act like "real men" or at least the traditional version of what a "real man" is. Men want any woman they can get, even if she does wear cargo pants, and the divorce rate in this country is through the roof.... go figure!

If women and men alike would go for whats on the inside more, and less about what's on the outside, I'd wager that there would be a lot more successful relationships.

[Grok]

Women have been the gatekeepers of sex/procreation. They therefore have leverage.

And a man's appearance becomes a bozo filter in reverse.

[Elisabetta]

This is a value point in wearing a skirt publicly especially if one is "unattached". The skirt serves as an excellent "Bozo filter" in that women who cannot think outside the narrow confines of "normalcy" (read, oppressively "average" and "mundane") won't be attracted to you; they'll self-select out. Of course you will attract some real oddballs, but those can be dealt with on your terms instead of them dealing with you on theirs (or trying to). In this mode, one can be rigid and inflexible -- to be able to hold his ground with dignity and pride instead of cowering under the cover of "compromise".

And that answers why most men won't wear skirts. Generally, men are desperate to look good for women. It's all they think about, and most wouldn't dare do anything that might make them seem unattractive to the opposite sex. Even men who are already attached worry about chasing off their wife, and failing to find a replacement. A stack of skirting photos roaming the internet of a man in a skirt may haunt him for life. Really, everyone is shallow to some extent.

It's the one case where model of supply and demand fails... after all there are more women in the world then men, and yet a hundred men will fight over one woman. When women see a skirted man, I feel most don't see the brave, stylish individual that we see when we look at each others photos and look at ourselves in the mirror. They see an odd ball that will breed them with possible male skirt wearing children. They want conformity, because conformity is stable and puts food on the table.

It's interesting that many women prefer the buff, rough and tumble, macho type of man, however then they get bent out of shape because women, in their infinite wisdom fail to realize these "hot studs" are also going to be in big demand with other women too, and men, being what they are will generally go after anything that shows an interest. Then these wives act hurt and surprised when the "trophy husband" cheats on the her, and when the "trophy husband" beats the snot out of the her.

Women want men who act like "real men" or at least the traditional version of what a "real man" is. Men want any woman they can get, even if she does wear cargo pants, and the divorce rate in this country is through the roof.... go figure!

If women and men alike would go for whats on the inside more, and less about what's on the outside, I'd wager that there would be a lot more successful relationships.

This is why we've lasted 13 years on Monday. I go for what lies in the heart of a man. He treats me good I'll treat him good. I don't care what he looks like I go for personality not looks. You could be the most ugliest man on earth but if you have a good personality you win my heart. I don't know why most woman go for hot studs and millionaires money can't buy happiness. As for men in skirts well at one point in time it bothered me when you first started out but now I don't give a sh*t their just clothes and as I have always said it doesn't define your character. Most woman have to get plastic surgery just so a man will be interested in her. ( Well the men that go for that kind of thing) I am just me.

[moonshadow]

Women have been the gatekeepers of sex/procreation. They therefore have leverage.

And a man's appearance becomes a bozo filter in reverse.

Yeah, I understand the science of it, natural selection and all, but that still doesn't make it right or fair, especially in a society that prides itself on civility and "equality".

[crfriend]

I don't care what he looks like I go for personality not looks.

I go for brains and competence, not outward appearance. Classical "beauty" is fleeting and deceiving. I'd rather spend my time with someone whom I can engage in meaningful conversation rather than some pretty airhead.

Most woman have to get plastic surgery just so a man will be interested in her.

With no offence even remotely intended, isn't that just a little bit shallow? Even plastic can't help some folks. No matter what post-modern feminism and stereotype have to say on the matter, most guys aren't that naive; many, if not most, of us have brains. There are "triggers" to be sure, but temporary physical beauty is not an overriding one.

Then there's this:

Women have been the gatekeepers of sex/procreation. They therefore have leverage.

And a man's appearance becomes a bozo filter in reverse.

That only works if the man wants to nothing more than sow wild oats. I somehow suspect that the really responsible ones don't happen to think that way -- and in that case, a "reverse bozo filter" is just the ticket. Casual "free 'love'" is dangerous in this day and age, and the risk/reward ratio is entirely too low for one-offs. Even what might be hoped as long-haul relationships can be dangerous. If either side is not willing to look any deeper than the surface, the encounter isn't worth it.

[Grok]

I used to read posts to kilt forums.

How do women react to men in kilts? To summarize the experiences of different men, women either love it, or hate it.

Some men have voiced an interest in kilting, only to find that this upsets their wives.

On the other hand, a number of men have gotten positive attention when women react to their kilts.

Kilts may be a special case. I don't know how women will react to men in other types of open ended garments, save for what people have posted to this forum.

[Elisabetta]

I don't care what he looks like I go for personality not looks.

I go for brains and competence, not outward appearance. Classical "beauty" is fleeting and deceiving. I'd rather spend my time with someone whom I can engage in meaningful conversation rather than some pretty airhead.

Most woman have to get plastic surgery just so a man will be interested in her.

With no offence even remotely intended, isn't that just a little bit shallow? Even plastic can't help some folks. No matter what post-modern feminism and stereotype have to say on the matter, most guys aren't that naive; many, if not most, of us have brains. There are "triggers" to be sure, but temporary physical beauty is not an overriding one.

Then there's this:

Women have been the gatekeepers of sex/procreation. They therefore have leverage.

And a man's appearance becomes a bozo filter in reverse.

That only works if the man wants to nothing more than sow wild oats. I somehow suspect that the really responsible ones don't happen to think that way -- and in that case, a "reverse bozo filter" is just the ticket. Casual "free 'love'" is dangerous in this day and age, and the risk/reward ratio is entirely too low for one-offs. Even what might be hoped as long-haul relationships can be dangerous. If either side is not willing to look any deeper than the surface, the encounter isn't worth it.

I don't think you're getting what I'm saying Carl I am referring to what Moon is saying about how most guys like to keep their woman. I wasn't being shallow just making a point.

[Sinned]

Tonight we were watching a programme on the BBC about the formation of a choir made up of disabled, physically and/or mentally,armed forces personnel. It featured some of the choir members as they auditioned for the choir. One of the men was blinded whilst in Afghanistan and his audition submission showed him wearing a tiered camouflage short skirt that KJ would have been proud of. I said to MOH that even big, burly soldiers wear skirts. The silence from her was almost deafening.

I am not convinced that this will make any difference in her attitude as I have asked her to google about men in skirts and to my best knowledge she hasn't done so such is her apparent (dis)nterest in the topic. She seems not to want to talk about it apart from making snide comments about me wearing a skirt again, wearing a a skirt every day, although I don't and so on.

[Grok]

Some nonWestern cultures may have different traditions, but in the West skirts have been associated almost entirely with females. Of course, Western women grow up in a setting where this view point prevails. So it is not entirely surprising that they may question the choices of maverick men.

Yes, this seems unfair. But consider this-forum members may be inclined to think outside the box only because we are personally interested in unconventional dress.

[moonshadow]

Tonight we were watching a programme on the BBC about the formation of a choir made up of disabled, physically and/or mentally,armed forces personnel. It featured some of the choir members as they auditioned for the choir. One of the men was blinded whilst in Afghanistan and his audition submission showed him wearing a tiered camouflage short skirt that KJ would have been proud of.

I like the fact that the veteran was wearing a skirt on TV. That's VERY good PR for "men in skirts".

Was it a kilt? Or an actual "ordinary" skirt? Personally, I'm hoping for the latter, as that breaks so many taboos in our culture.

[john62]

Last night on NCIS LA one of the male characters was wearing a kilt for the first time.

[crfriend]

Some nonWestern cultures may have different traditions, but in the West skirts have been associated almost entirely with females. Of course, Western women grow up in a setting where this view point prevails. So it is not entirely surprising that they may question the choices of maverick men.

We cannot be held responsible for the actions of those who cannot -- or, worse, will not -- open their minds. If we are to be held responsible -- or expected (nay, demanded) to conform -- then we may as well close our minds as well. Is this what society wants of us? Is this what we want of ourselves?

Yes, this seems unfair.

Not, "unfair", but bull-headed and, ultimately, stupid. I regard it as a failure-mode.

But consider this-forum members may be inclined to think outside the box only because we are personally interested in unconventional dress.

Possessing an open mind is frequently an all-or-nothing affair. One either has the capacity to find entirely new and creative solutions to problems because he frees himself from "conventional wisdom" or one doesn't. If one is on a crusade for one thing, and one thing only, then he's a bit of a "one-trick pony"; however, if one consistently used his mind creatively, and lets it wander unfettered in search of answers, then there is vast potential.

If all we could do as humans was to think what we've always thought, and do what we've always done, we would not have seen much progress in the couple of million years that hominids have roamed the earth -- and certainly would not have done anything "great" that we seem to call "accomplishments" (some of which we can no longer do). That is not the world I want to live in.

[Sinned]

Moon, it was a tiered or ra-ra type skirt and looked something like the ones Kilted-John wears. For those with access to it ( I don't know if you guys on the other side of River Atlantic can access it ) the programme is available on BBC iplayer for the next 24 days and the url is http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... -episode-1. The guy in question appears at about 7:54 into the programme and Gareth Malone, the choirmaster actually says, "Why is this guy appearing in a tu-tu?". He meets the guy about a minute or so later in the programme and comments upon the tu-tu. One of the choir members says near the end, "Women get frisky when they see a man in a kilt."

Having had one son in the forces and lost him, fortunately not in action but just losing him was excruciatingly painful, the programme was difficult for me to watch and to see the determination and .... I don't know the words quite frankly, I know that you all have similar veterans that have to overcome the physical and mental handicaps that were enforced upon them, Very, very touching for me and Gareth shows tremendous sense of humour with them in a difficult circumstance. If you can watch the programme then do so - you will be enriched for the experience. Sorry I had to add this postscript - I've just watched it a second time with tears in my eyes at times.

[Fred in Skirts]

Moon, it was a tiered or ra-ra type skirt and looked something like the ones Kilted-John wears. For those with access to it ( I don't know if you guys on the other side of River Atlantic can access it ) the programme is available on BBC iplayer for the next 24 days and the url is http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... -episode-1. The guy in question appears at about 7:54 into the programme and Gareth Malone, the choirmaster actually says, "Why is this guy appearing in a tu-tu?". He meets the guy about a minute or so later in the programme and comments upon the tu-tu. One of the choir members says near the end, "Women get frisky when they see a man in a kilt."

I got this message when I tried:

BBC iPlayer TV programmes are available to play in the UK only. Find out why.

If you are in the UK and see this message please read this advice.

Fred