Difficulties with partners

[Pdxfashionpioneer]

Hi Sinned, Best of luck with your birthday. I hope that it proves to be a fun, positive watershed moment.

Please keep in mind that Moonshadow was being supportive in his reply and that you ARE taking control of your life by taking the steps that you have.

[Sinned]

Moon, Moon. No you don't know my situation as I don't know yours. So hold back on the ride into the sunset scenario. MOH is very much like her father who was very much concerned about what other people think. After 40 years we both have a lot invested in this partnership, emotionally, financially and a lot of other ways so I, at least, am not going to give this up without a fight and I don't think that she is. MOH is mostly very loyal and loving and I have lots of patience, which is just as well. I have made lots progress in many, many small ways and there are just one or two hurdles to get over. I feel that the main one is imminent and another close by and I just have to gently urge her over them. Don't get me wrong, I am not angry with MOH about this and in some ways I find things almost amusing to see her outbursts sometimes. I know others think that I am being a wimp but I'm not. It's like trying to tame a lion without being bitten. I have never been divorced and don't intend to be any time soon and even though she sometimes mentions it I don't think that she's really serious. If she were then she would have walked out before now. Those of you that have been know what a trauma it can be and I have seen the emotional turmoil it causes as two of my children have been divorced.

Just as I have put up with your rants I treat your latest missive in the same vein so calm down. I am in control of my life in many ways and I resent the ability of one of my work colleagues to determine how many hours I work in a week and when in a much more serious channel. MOH's opposition to skirting is just an irritation in my life that I need to scratch. I just hope that these words don't come back to haunt me.

Cool, Moon, cool. Remember: God grant me the serenity to accept things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.

[Disaffected.citizen]

Cool, Moon, cool. Remember: God grant me the serenity to accept things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.

Sorry, but I thought the correct phrase was "God grant me the serenity to accept things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to hide the bodies of those who cross me

[Kilty]

Moon, Moon. No you don't know my situation as I don't know yours. So hold back on the ride into the sunset scenario. MOH is very much like her father who was very much concerned about what other people think. After 40 years we both have a lot invested in this partnership, emotionally, financially and a lot of other ways so I, at least, am not going to give this up without a fight and I don't think that she is. MOH is mostly very loyal and loving and I have lots of patience, which is just as well. I have made lots progress in many, many small ways and there are just one or two hurdles to get over. I feel that the main one is imminent and another close by and I just have to gently urge her over them. Don't get me wrong, I am not angry with MOH about this and in some ways I find things almost amusing to see her outbursts sometimes. I know others think that I am being a wimp but I'm not. It's like trying to tame a lion without being bitten. I have never been divorced and don't intend to be any time soon and even though she sometimes mentions it I don't think that she's really serious. If she were then she would have walked out before now. Those of you that have been know what a trauma it can be and I have seen the emotional turmoil it causes as two of my children have been divorced.

Just as I have put up with your rants I treat your latest missive in the same vein so calm down. I am in control of my life in many ways and I resent the ability of one of my work colleagues to determine how many hours I work in a week and when in a much more serious channel. MOH's opposition to skirting is just an irritation in my life that I need to scratch. I just hope that these words don't come back to haunt me.

40 years is a long time to be unhappy or sleeping with one eye open, in case of attack, verbal or otherwise. I read your accounts on here and I do feel sorry for the situation. I hope the birthday goes well, I know you don't like my sartorial choices so aside from a jeans skirt which I think is fairly 'invisible', or pushing the envelope, a kilt, just be trousered and enjoy the visit of your children

[moonshadow]

Moon, Moon. No you don't know my situation as I don't know yours. So hold back on the ride into the sunset scenario. MOH is very much like her father who was very much concerned about what other people think. After 40 years we both have a lot invested in this partnership, emotionally, financially and a lot of other ways so I, at least, am not going to give this up without a fight and I don't think that she is. MOH is mostly very loyal and loving and I have lots of patience, which is just as well. I have made lots progress in many, many small ways and there are just one or two hurdles to get over. I feel that the main one is imminent and another close by and I just have to gently urge her over them. Don't get me wrong, I am not angry with MOH about this and in some ways I find things almost amusing to see her outbursts sometimes. I know others think that I am being a wimp but I'm not. It's like trying to tame a lion without being bitten. I have never been divorced and don't intend to be any time soon and even though she sometimes mentions it I don't think that she's really serious. If she were then she would have walked out before now. Those of you that have been know what a trauma it can be and I have seen the emotional turmoil it causes as two of my children have been divorced.

Well, as long as you are content and at ease with the situation, then I guess that's all that matters. You clearly have a higher tolerance level than I in regards to those who object to my skirt wearing. You can ask Jenn... not just in skirts, but in every matter concerning my character, a frequently used phrase of mine is "well here is what I am, take it or leave it". And I meant it. Year after year Jenn decided to "take it for what it is". This is not to say that there haven't been bumps in the road, oh yes, there have been fights, but so far we're still here.

Recall a quote from one of my favorite childhood movies, Beetlejuice: "Lydia, I have a chance to teach you something here: you have got to take the upper hand in all situations or people, whether they're dead or alive, will walk all over you."

Note: I don't attempt to control others, however I demand that I remain in control of my own life. Sometimes I yield some of that control for limited periods of time when it benefits me in some way (I.E. reporting to work) And yes, I've got a divorce on my record, and more previous jobs that I can shake a stick at to prove it. Most everyone in my family hates me, and I don't have a lot of friends.... but rather be alone than be walked all over and used by so called friends and family. -- And I'm not saying this is your situation, I'm just speaking generally.

I just hope that these words don't come back to haunt me.

If you mean your words towards me... think nothing of it, we're cool. If your talking about your skirt arguments with your old lady... well, I don't know about that.

I hope everything works out for you Dennis. I'm still rootin' for ya.

[Elisabetta]

Dennis helpful advice from a lady.

40 years is a great accomplishment to be married to someone however without communication it won't make it past it. You need to sit your wife and kids down away from any other outsiders and family and talk to them. Reassure them that you're still the same father they've always known you as as well as the same husband your wife married long ago. Let them know you have no desire to transition( If that's your choice not to) that you just find soul comfort in these choice of clothing. Whether it be skirts or dresses. Let them know you're not aiming to embarrass them and ask them to try and support you. Also ask them what it is they dislike in regards to what you wear and open the door for them to offer you some suggestions on how to make it a bit easier to deal with on both ends of the stick. Sometimes when you invite them in and they play a part in it helps at making the situation a bit better to handle. From reading a majority of your post there's not much communication going on between your wife and kids. It seems that ( sorry not aiming to offend.) you allow your family to intimidate you. While you talk to them also let them know you plan to stay skirted. Let them know how they're making you feel but also hear their side as to why it is they're eating at separate ends of a restaurant than be shown with you.

When Moon first came to me about this honestly I was so embarrassed to be around him. I literally walked ahead just so people wouldn't notice I was with him. After that night I sat myself down away from Moon and my daughter and thought about it. I told myself what is it that's wrong with it? I couldn't think of a single reason other than Moon can't coordinate his clothes much( No offense to you Moon) The other day Moon asked me what made me come around. I told him wearing skirts their just clothing Dennis it doesn't define your character. You are still the same man you've always been and you need to assure your family of that. Once they see that things will get better.



Ps. Have a very Happy Birthday

[dillon]

Dennis, just out of curiosity, what exactly about your skirt-wearing seems to bother your wife most? Does she have some religious or moral objection? Does she fear that you will turn gay or TG and leave her? Or is she obsessed with all things being normal, predictable and stable to her social world, and unable to handle anything outside the world as she expects it to be? Or is she embarrassed to be seen with you and unwilling to support of defend you socially? Or is there some other source of contention or dismay in the relationship, and your skirts seem to be her strongest weapon against you? Forgive me if I am prying, but it is very difficult for many of us to read of your relationship and not then wonder why it yet persists? I don't wish to make you uncomfortable, so if you don't care to expound, I will understand.

[hairy]

Dennis, I think I know where your coming from. My wife don't mind one bit about me being skirted so I'm lucky with that, but there are always other problems to deal with as in any relationship, I don't think any of us would think of anyone else as a whimp. I hope your partner see's sense soon so you can happily be you.

[Sinned]

How can I respond to your questions but let me say from the outset that I know that you are looking out for me, are puzzled a lot by my situation and feel free to say what's on your mind. If you upset me than I will let you know probably by PM first. Carl has counselled that my wife's objection is emotional and I think he fully understands that. Being emotional no amount of logic or showing her websites supporting men wearing skirts will convince her to accept me wearing a skirt. I don't think that she can verbalise why. The main theme I get is that when she sees me in a skirt she sees woman. I also think that deep down she knows that I don't want to transition, that I'm not gay and if anyone leaves it will be her but apart from our children neither of us have any real family left to move in with. I do try to talk about it but she just bites my head off and that is not conducive to reasoned discussion. We have lasted 40 years together and I don't seriously see us splitting up as, on the whole, we are better together than apart, which would be misery for either of us. Why does it still persist - I think that it's because we do love each other and even though we have our differences and arguments our love can carry us through. It's that that I hope wouldn't come back to bite me, if she files for divorce, Moon not anything you have said. dillon, I don't know what her real fear is as she won't verbalise it. I think she would certainly be embarrassed to be with me and she has some particular quirk about not letting the neighbours see me even though I have been out in the front garden working and been out and about. She knows the neighbours a bit better than me but we only know most of them in passing. She is at work tomorrow and she knows that I will be out and about in a skirt, she just won't take the step and accompany me in a skirt. I KNOW that if she did it would break the ice but I am not going to force her to do it - that's not who I am. When she can VOLUNTARILY do so then I will be content. I think Stevie is one other person who is in a similar position to me but there are others.

Jenn, your words are wise and I have talked to my children, children, hah, that's just a relationship descriptor now as my eldest will be 39 this year and youngest 33. I think that as you say it is their support that may pull her through. Previous support for her has just been through loyalty to her and not wanting to upset her irrespective of my feelings. Like Moon I am somewhat a loner and have very few real friends. I tend to like my own company and read a lot and I mean A LOT. I look back and see that my liking for non-traditional male clothes has been a thin thread all through our marriage and early on we would often wear matching things, male and female, so my skirting isn't completely a shock to her. She is still probably stuck in the early stages as you were but I am confident that as you did she will. I do co-ordinate things well as you will see from the few photos I have posted - more will follow. I wear skirts around most times at the moment because of the heat but am mindful of her feelings and wear trousers sometimes.

kilty, I don't sleep a lot but then I have always been like that so no fear of me sleeping with one eye open in case of attack. I only have sight in one eye anyway due to an accident when I was 10 years old. I am not against your dress choices per se - I just wouldn't go as far as you in its entirety but you are happy with your look and that's all that matters to me. I wear short skirts, particularly circle skirts, and have been out and about in our uncharacteristic hot weather - it's been 26 degrees new money today, in a 14 inch long circle skirt and it has felt FANTASTIC. Was I worried about the length, about showing my knickers - in a word not a f___ing sausage. Like some of you, I whinge and moan but my situation could be worse and I am grateful for all that I have been blessed with - including MOH, who I love dearly.

[dillon]

Thanks, Dennis. I understand it better now.

[Kirbstone]

MOH totally disapproves of my skirt wearing and as a direct result I can only reasonably do it when she is away. Right now she's taking a coach-load of Book Cub ladies on a coach trip to the Staffordshire potteries in the UK and so I can 'potter' about the precinct here skirted for the next week.

Yippee!

Tom

[6ft3Aussie]

How our partners react is always a concern for the majority of us.

I know that my wife (married nearly 4 years) had the common enough reaction of "Is he gay or something" but then learning the reason why I might wear a sarong or similar, she was in fact quite comfortable with it.
She lived and worked in Singapore for 4 years some time ago and became accustomed to seeing Indian and Malaysian men wearing their traditional sarongs or similar, but she accepted that as part of their cultural heritage, rather than anything else.
My wife is from Leyte, Philippines, all the times I've been there (and in any other part of the Philippines) I've never seen another man wear skirts/sarongs, just shorts or jeans usually.

I don't know how she would react if I went with her to the supermarket or anywhere else, for that matter, in a sarong or skirt.

I was in Melbourne with her in mid February and we did see several men around in the city on a Saturday evening wearing kilts, I did see an Indian man there wearing his long white sarong, and I have seen a young guy, probably early-mid 20s, at the mall one night (with a girl) who was wearing a sarong, so there are a few people out there who do wear skirts/sarongs out there. She showed little interest, other than noting that I noticed.

My wife is actually very accepting of me wearing a sarong around the house and she's frequently telling me she wants me to be comfortable, especially when it's warm - we're about 6 weeks away from the shortest day and still getting temps in the mid-high 20s (Brisbane).

Its good to hear that many of us have accepting partners and our skirt wearing is not an issue, but I feel for those of us out there whose partners are not quite so accepting.
It's strange how they might accept some other man wearing a skirt/kilt/sarong etc, but it's a problem for them when we do it.

[moonshadow]

I'm going to make a casual observation here, and I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, but based on some of the stories on this website, in addition to some general online searches, it is revealed to me, that in the majority view among women in general, when ask the question, "do you think men should be free to wear skirts if he chooses", most women do indeed agree that he should be free to do so, however that said, many of those same women also point out "but I wouldn't date one who does".

Now as a man of observational principles, there is something about this sentiment that gets under my skin. As men, we are expected to embrace our wives, girlfriends, etc regardless of what they do, or how they dress. We are to champion women who choose to work outside the home, and support women who don't want to engage in more "traditional" task that have been formally womens domain, that being tending the house and raising the children. To hold such views today, one would be branded as backward, sexist, and out of touch with modern life.

However, explain to me then, if we are to embrace a woman's right to choose her own destiny and live her life as she see's fit, then why is it so much frowned upon by women, if "their men" choose to live a lifestyle that may be more of a feminine nature? Is it not sexist when these women expect "their men" to put forth a "macho man" image in the public's eye? To be honest, I prefer to see women in skirts, I think it makes them look better. I'm not much on "masculine women", it's just a preference, however I do not expect any woman, including my own wife to parade around like a good southern "belle" for my own benefit so that I may demonstrate to society that "I have a good, proper wife". No, that would be controlling, and demeaning, and disrespectful to my wife's personal freedoms. And so far my wife understands this and DOES let me wear what I want. The issue I grapple with is OTHER women.

We stood back and watched as these women burned their bra's in the 60's, and now those same women bawk at the notion that we may just want to burn our trousers?

Liberation only runs in one direction now?

Are we nothing more that pieces of meat?

Are we nothing more than breeding stock?

Do we (men) have any REAL value in society, aside from the amount of productivity our employers can amass from our backs, and the number of proper, well bred children we can give a woman?

Just sayin... general observations... tell me I'm wrong! I'm not saying ALL women are like this, but I am saying that based on my study of the subject, a majority are.

[Sinned]

Moon, you are speaking from a logical perspective whereas the whole "yes men can wear skirts unless it is the man I married or are am going out with" is not logically but emotionally based and the distinction is as wide as the Grand Canyon. And whoever said that women can wear anything but men can't was fair doesn't understand human emotions. I work in the unfair and, as others, try to change it. The fact that my main objector lives so close to me makes it harder for me so I try and advance the cause in baby steps. To use an analogy, if I went ahead as you have done and just wear skirts irrespective of MOH's feelings/objections/wishes then like the oak tree it would break the relationship. What I am doing is applying pressure bit by bit to get the tree to bend as I want it. Yes, I forgot Tom is in a slightly worse position as he can't wear a skirt when HOH is around whereas I can and just lately she hasn't objected quite as often or vociferously. I feel that I am getting there. C'est la vie.

When doctors can fertilise an egg without the intervention of a sperm then we are no longer needed, not even for breeding stock.

Today is my skirt day as she is at work all day whereas I don't start work until 2pm so I will be out and about this morning. 9am full breakfast at the Harvester chain and hit the stores, not that I buy much, just to not be in the house.

6ft3inAussie, you have ducked the issue here a bit as you have said that you don't know how she would react if you wanted to go to the store with you in a skirt. You may have all this to come, mate. Until you try it you won't know. MOH is accepting of a sarong worn as a skirt on holiday. Good luck, mate, and I hope the reaction you get is a good one, but you may need it.

BTW yesterday was by far the hottest day of the year so far, 26 degrees, and I commented more than once yesterday at work, "If we get many more days like this this year I'm definitely going to start wearing a skirt". Negative comments from my colleagues - none.

[moonshadow]

I do understand where you (Dennis) are coming from, and I hope that you and others who are struggling with this don't think I'm coming down too harsh. I only write these arguments in the event that someone here may be able to use them to win their own battles. Everything I have said above I have used in debating the subject in real life scenarios with complete success, from my own wife, to my mother, to co-workers. Each one has conceded in their own way because at the end of the day, the argument against men in skirts simply doesn't hold water!

Generally speaking... it's a VERY easy debate to win! If for no other reason because so many western women wear mens outfits and get away with it! The only class of people I can't win with is the strict Apostolic and Pentecostal people, they adhere to a very strict dress code both in and out of church. That is their right, and my only defense against their argument is "I'm not a Christian, so these rules don't apply to me".

My toughest sell has been my mother. In many ways, she is rather like your wife in this regard. She objects, and doesn't want me to come around her house like that, and I have also noticed that despite my step father being gone since January, she has yet to come around to my house. I'm only 90 miles down the road, about an hour and a half drive... not a biggie. I feel like the reason is she knows that in my house I'm going to wear what I want, and she would be embarrassed to see me in such a way.

However, there are little victories... in one of my discussions with her recently, she admitted to "trying" her best to find a rational reason to present to me against wearing "womens" skirts, and the end of it all, she just had to admit, that "I wasn't doing anything wrong or immoral, just different". Thus she admitted that she "had nothing" on the matter, and that it was just a matter of personal preference on her part.

Many people, including my mother, and some co-workers have admitted that my debates have made them take a good hard look at how and why things are the way they are. You see, it's not just a skirt, it's a message of so many things that is wrong with the world. It confronts men's lack of his most basic liberties, that being the right to dress himself. It confronts how our society *really* feels about the feminine, and women in general, and that being that despite all our advances in gender equality, most people, including women feel that women are still the weaker sex. Most people don't like to confront their own prejudices. They like the pretend they live in a world where they are pure and virtuous, and without any wrong doing. People like to think they are always right, and they don't like being told they are wrong... especially with PROOF!

And I think that's why most people are bothered by men wearing skirts, because it tells the "haters" that they are wrong. People don't like confronting the fact that they are not always right. Our skirts turn their world view (the view that they are always right) on it's head. Thus, they dislike us for it.