The Western World influence

[skirts4me]

I have long been concerned that leaders of many countries around the world appear to feel that they must dress in Western style clothes to have any respect from other leaders, particularly those of the Western world. Reports about the meeting of the leaders of Communist China and Taiwan have included images such as the one below (which I took from a BBC article), where both men are wearing western style suits and ties, despite that not being part of their heritage until very recently, and only because of the influence of The West. I find it depressing that people from quite a different culture should find it necessary to wear western style clothes when talking among themselves. It's bad enough that they feel they have to do that when meeting with Western leaders. What does it say about our demand that others comply with our wishes, and about our willingness to accept others as they are?

Chinese leaders.png

The power of the Western World influence makes it difficult for us to break down those 'western' conventions. The fight to wear skirts needs to address this problem.

[Raakone]

There's several factors why this may be the case....

Firstly, a holdover from colonialism. When huge chunks of Africa and Asia were ruled by the European countries, those who had the power, dressed a certain way. Also, those hoping to go as high as "locals" were allowed in the government generally had to go by the clothing styles of "their masters."

Another aspect of this was many of the higher jobs were often held by those from the "master" country, and whether explicitly stated or not, those who wanted to impress them, had to dress like them.

Even after independence, these ideas may linger. To many in Sri Lanka, sarongs are still what "poorer" people wear. Even though they're better suited to the climate.

The second factor is the idea that Western CLOTHING itself is "the future" or "proper", and linking it to being progressive, linking all else to being "backward" or "stubborn" or "inferior." This was especially shown in independent countries that wanted to impress the West. Russia once entered a period like this (when the Tsar even ordered men to shave, to be more "European."), and during the dictatorship in Thailand during World War 2, there were sweeping changes imposed by Field Marshal Plaek Pibulsonggram. There were posters such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_cult ... poster.PNG put up around the country. And if you look at it, yes, men's sarongs were "bad" attire. Also, in Kenya, when Jomo Kenyatta became Prime Minister, and then President, he ordered a sweeping modernization of society. I read that there was a hotel where the men who worked there were ordered by the government to stop wearing kikoi (sarongs) and start wearing trousers. The same government also ordered that people doing traditional dances, to cater to "modern" (that is "western") sensitivities, must entail men wearing gym shorts, and women wearing bikinis, beneath all the traditional garb. And in many countries, both schools and nightclubs will bar anyone who's wearing "traditional" clothing even if it belongs to that country it's in. Also, some international missionary churches help encourage this, that somehow dressing "Western" is what Jesus would want.

And a third....an incorrect assumption of "cause and affect", and related to it (and factor 2) is that certain clothing becomes associated with status. People have some kind of idea that Western clothing is some kind of prosperity magnet. They see strong, independent, and generally "not poor" men in jeans in Hollywood movies, and feel that somehow dressing like them makes them BECOME them. I read that now, in the two Samoas (especially AMERICAN Samoa, but not only there), men and especially boys who wear the lavalava (sarong) may have it on in a slightly sloppy manner, with jeans, shorts, or "homey pants" (because gangsta culture is becoming popular there) underneath, and they make sure that it's OBVIOUS to everyone that they have the shorts or pants on underneath. I imagine some of the guys who do this even somehow think that if they dress this way, they're more like those cool idolized people from California (outside of the USA, seems like California is "The Center of the Universe" amonst youth). Also, do you know what western attire is often called around the world? MODERN clothing. MODERN style. Ok, related to point 2 more than this one, but also, it's like somehow if one dresses "modern", then they'll have all else that is "modern" (SUVs, central air conditioning, top of the line home entertainment systems, iPhones, everything else that is "must have", etc) An incorrect assumption that because someone is dressed a certain way, that all the wealth and benefits and technological advances and creature comforts of others who dress that way will come to them, even if they don't say it's so, it's assumed as a kind of subconscious, subliminal level.

OK, a fourth possible factor.....Big Money. The Fa$hion indu$try. If people around the world have more in common in how they dress, if more "traditional" clothing is relegated to special occasions, that means all the big companies, and even those not so big, can cater to more people with less variety, therefore, less overhead. If the "Corridor Suit", as I like to call it (after the Northeast Corridor, with Washington and Wall Street, among others) ceased to be an "international" prestige symbol, would certain companies start having problems?

Maybe this is all bad news, but we must know where the lines are drawn, why things are how they are.

[dillon]

If I am not mistaken, during the recent visit to the US by the Saudi royal family, King Salman and much of his massive entourage did remain in their traditional and formal thobes, and that would have been a plenty of them. They reserved an entire towering hotel and more than 100 limosines. I'm sure there are some other international leaders who do the same. But I think where business and economics are concerned, that seems to direct that the uniform of tradition is the business suit, no matter the needless the suffering in such garb!

[Judah14]

Of course there are exceptions, such as the Philippines where the traditional Barong Tagalog shirt is worn (albeit with trousers) during formal events by politicians and businessmen alike. In the Philippine context Western vs. traditional clothing is explained in this article (which is about skirts for men): http://www.philstar.com/fashion-and-bea ... aid-skirts

[moonshadow]

Lot of good points mentioned here (too much to quote every little thing)

But I think what it all boils down to is money, and everyone's obsession with chasing a dollar. The simple fact is, no one is MAKING these people dress in western attire, no they are playing the game, and selling their souls because there is a DEAL ON THE TABLE!

Well, to quote one of my favorite TV shows (Star Trek TNG), "their belly may be full, but their spirit is empty".

To hell with that! Skirts may not be in my heritage or culture, but they are now just as much a part of me as anything else I hold most dear. If my employer (the source of my prosperity) came to me, and told me I have to do any of the following: leave my wife, abandon my daughter, change my religion, dictate things like what I eat, what I wear on my own time (skirts included), my political opinions, or otherwise orders me to unwillingly change anything in my personal life, and threaten my job if I don't.....

Well, he won't have to fire me, because I'll quit!

My soul is not for sale, and even if it did have a price, "western influence" is just too shallow and "cheap". If I'm going to give my soul over to a cultural influence (and I'm not, this is just hypothetical) than it would at least be one with some actual culture. Not just a bunch of money worshiping capitalist!

And I'm not blowing smoke.... to quote EXACTLY what I said to my boss when he informed me that if I take his job (a promotion) I will essentially be on call 24/7/365, and basically NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER have a day off EVER again!

I said: "Nope! Not going to do that. My private time is the only thing that makes my life worth living. Take that away and I'm better of on the streets."

I think he thought I was kidding, but I'm not. I don't care if they offer me a million dollars.... well then again, for a million dollars (per year?) I'd work six months and retire!

These Chinese leaders could do the same thing if they wanted to! All they have to do is say NO!

[denimini]

Certainly a Western originated convention but I don't believe they feel they have to wear suits to gain respect. I think it could be a case of competitiveness; We can wear suits too but we do it even better.
Where I was studying industrial design there were other faculties, economics, plumbing, etc. We were encouraged to wear what was appropriate for our chosen career path; plumbers wore overalls, accountants wore suits and us in the arts discipline (or lack of discipline) wore what ever we liked - skirts would have been OK if I had thought of them then.
Later, when I was in a business designing and building brick making machinery, my business partner and I would go to engineering exhibitions, him in a suit and me in overalls, we would visit the different displays separately and often come away with quite different information of which when combined gave us some advantage. So stereotypes and conventions still play a part whether we like it or not, but because of this it can be used to advantage albeit in a rather cynical way and this may be the case of the Asian leaders.

[crfriend]

Here's a side-track from "Western Influence" and the "suit" (empty or otherwise).

As everybody here's aware, I'm going through a bit of legal trouble at the moment thanks to my ex-partner. It's BS, and even my lawyer has indicated as much, but it's still a very real and potent threat to my future as it has the potential to completely end my career. In any event, everybody around me is trying to be helpful; however, some of it is entirely unwelcome and borders on the abusive, and I'll have it out with the individuals in question in due course.

The "suit" here in the USA is still regarded as the respectable thing to wear when the going gets serious. Furthermore, it's expected that all aspects of one's appearance trend toward the "Banker Look". At least the expectation persists for the elder generation whom haven't realised yet precisely how much damage the bankers and money-bunnies have done to Western Civilisation in the past 35 years; to my generation, the suit is emblematic of white-collar crime, and wholesale financial gaming that has grievously injured society as a whole to the benefit of a tiny few. Why would I want to look like, or behave in, such a way? This is part of the hole that we need to climb out of, and it's a deep one.

And so it came to pass that I got "The Lecture" about my appearance the other day -- the same damned one I've gotten for 40-odd years: "Shave your beard, cut your hair, stand up straight, and get a suit." I'm tired of it, and I let the issuer know it, but did not let off both barrels at once which is what'll happen next time. "No, <name here>, I am NOT going to cut my hair; it took me 25 years to grow it to be the way it is now, and I don't have another 25 years to grow it back. You're demanding that I go the wrong way on a one-way street. Yes, I've already trimmed my beard; I'm not stupid. No, I am NOT going to shave it off as it's a part of who I am. Yes, I dress "appropriately" for court; no, I don't wear skirts there (although that would be a statement). No, I am not going to buy a suit; why should I dress like my oppressors and those whom I generally despise?" Somebody remains unclear that I'm an adult -- and have been one for a very long time -- and not the family baby. Somebody also needs to learn that this is no longer the country that they grew up in, and the ground-rules have, indeed, changed -- and not for the better.

I can act with the best of them; in fact I'm better than many -- and the best thing about clothes is that one takes them off at the end of the day. I'm willing to go along -- to a point -- but I refuse to become, or even ape, the sorts of scoundrels and scalawags that epitomise the "suit". Oh, and I'm going to keep my ponytail as well -- and my skirts. It's my legacy that matters, and I'm not about to relinquish that without one Hell of a fight.

[Steve]

Reminds me of Cargo Cults (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult)

With the end of [World War II], the military abandoned the airbases and stopped dropping cargo. In response, charismatic individuals developed cults among remote Melanesian populations that promised to bestow on their followers deliveries of food, arms, Jeeps, etc. The cult leaders explained that the cargo would be gifts from their own ancestors, or other sources, as had occurred with the outsider armies. In attempts to get cargo to fall by parachute or land in planes or ships again, islanders imitated the same practices they had seen the soldiers, sailors, and airmen use. Cult behaviors usually involved mimicking the day-to-day activities and dress styles of US soldiers, such as performing parade ground drills with wooden or salvaged rifles. The islanders carved headphones from wood and wore them while sitting in fabricated control towers. They waved the landing signals while standing on the runways. They lit signal fires and torches to light up runways and lighthouses.[citation needed]

In a form of sympathetic magic, many built life-size replicas of airplanes out of straw and cut new military-style landing strips out of the jungle, hoping to attract more airplanes. The cult members thought that the foreigners had some special connection to the deities and ancestors of the natives, who were the only beings powerful enough to produce such riches.

Cargo cults were typically created by individual leaders, or big men in the Melanesian culture, and it is not at all clear if these leaders were sincere, or were simply running scams on gullible populations. The leaders typically held cult rituals well away from established towns and colonial authorities, thus making reliable information about these practices very difficult to acquire.

We're all human and subject to the same weaknesses and foibles as everyone else, but for circumstance.

[JohnH]

And so it came to pass that I got "The Lecture" about my appearance the other day -- the same damned one I've gotten for 40-odd years: "Shave your beard, cut your hair, stand up straight, and get a suit."

Carl, I can understand why you would not want to shave your beard and cut your hair. However, you can always take your suit off at the end of the event. Nobody said you couldn´t wear a skirt suit complete with heels.

Seriously you might consider a maxi-skirt in a traditional color of a man´s suit along with a matching jacket, along with a white shirt and tie. You might add a vest and a pocket watch with a gold chain for a distinguished look along with your beard. In this day and age it is ridiculous to suggest you shave your beard. In the Dallas Texas area there are enough men with long hair that the suggestion of cutting your hair is not expected and you could wear your hair as a pony tail.

John

[Potbelly MacKraken]

One of the best examples of this "Western Influence" is the "modernization" of Japan, called by Japanese historians "the aping of the West." Japan was never colonized the way its Asian neighbors were, primarily because it decided than in order to avoid the imperialism of the West, it needed to become Westernized, in ALL ways, especially in clothing and appearance. So, out wen the flowing kimono, yukata, the top knot, long hair, and the comfortable zori sandals, and in came the uncomfortable wool military uniforms and suits during the Meiji restoration, which is when Japan switched back power to its emperor away from the shogunate. Everything Japanese was seen as feminine and ridiculed, backwards, while everything Western was seen as modern, masculine, and progressive.

Take a look at the following link and pics of Emperor Meiji, and the difference between his Japanese style look and his "Western" looks and clothes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Meiji

But then you have US, heavily Western influenced places like Hawaii and American Samoa, where the Hawaiian shirt and lavalava are considered proper, appropriate, work and formal attire.

There was a headline in a Utah paper a little while ago about when Obama came to visit for some reason and one of the people who met with him thought the meeting was "business casual" and showed up in a polo shirt and slacks while everyone else wore a shirt and tie. Everyone erupted about how unprofessional he looked compared to everyone else and how embarrassed he was.

Indeed, one of the important catalysts for me starting to wear skirts was when I was kicked out of a court room by the bailiff because I was wearing khaki shorts, while the girl behind me was wearing a knee length or shorter khaki skirt, and she was allowed to stay. Such rules are nonsense to me because they make no sense whatsoever, except that that is cultural tradition, pounded into everyone from birth, held over form a long bygone but unfortunately still very influential Victorian era.

I was supposed to have jury duty the other day; the instructions said "no shorts, tank tops, or other inappropriate attire." To me, "inappropriate" is a very broad term, and since they didn't define it, I was going to wear a skirt (a tartan lavalava most likely), a t-shirt, and a cardigan with sandals if actually called in, clothing that women can wear and still be considered "professional." I wasn't called in, but I would've worn just that because, except for job interviews where playing the game really does unfortunately matter, I am done playing the "Western cultural superiority game" when it comes to fashion and clothing. I'm not going to be ruled by some bygone Victorian era leftover superstitions, not when there is a whole world of comfort out there to explore and exploit in the form of skirts and other "female, feminine fashions."