Skirt Cafe is an on-line community dedicated to exploring, promoting and advocating skirts and kilts as a fashion choice for men, formerly known as men in skirts. We do this in the context of men's fashion freedom --- an expansion of choices beyond those commonly available for men to include kilts, skirts and other garments. We recognize a diversity of styles our members feel comfortable wearing, and do not exclude any potential choices. Continuing dialog on gender is encouraged in the context of fashion freedom for men. See here for more details.
crfriend wrote:
Welcome to the wonderful wacky world of irrationality.
From my experience, men and women approach -- and solve -- problems quite differently.
I didn't want to quote your whole post, but I certainly recognise the description you gave of the differences between the approaches of men and women to problems, and I agree with you.
I'm one of the lucky ones as many of you know, but I think if there is a problem around our skirt wearing and our partners then its not really us that have the problem its the other half and as such they are the ones that need to deal with it or get over it, we are just being our normal selves.
Some of you have said how your OHs have commented on your clothes in a negative way, I can't help wondering how they would feel if you gave them the same ive treatment back on what they are wearing for the day, I think that's what I would do if I was having problems with my wife, it would be like OMG I'm not going out shopping with you today if your going to wear those trousers again, people might look.
I hope my starting this thread has not caused any problems for any of you, I just feel that too many were being pushed around and dare I say, not the ones wearing the trousers.
As LGG said, it's not that easy. MOH mainly wears leggings and her attitude, and she has said this directly, is that the leggings may be a form of trousers but they are cut, designed and marketed to women and as such are women's garments as are skirts. I keep getting snide comments every now and again about how much she thinks I look like a woman which really, really hurts even though I am careful not to show it. The trouble is that MOH has worn leggings for so long now that hairy's approach would seem very artificial and just wouldn't work.
I came across this site in my meanderings across the notwork - http://www.yvonnesinclair.co.uk/pages/Y ... 0Book.html. Yes, it's about transvestism but sections 11 and 12 are pertinent to us as skirt wearers about whether there is a cure or not and what about if she refuses his need and threatens divorce. I know my wife has mentioned divorce recently although how serious she is I don't know. I enjoy wearing skirts, find them comfortable and so on BUT I don't really know the subconscious reasons why I wear skirts in the face of such determined opposition from MOH and I certainly wouldn't want to stop wearing them now. I feel that I would be damaged emotionally and depression is a possibility as I have suffered from it before in the latter portion of a pressurised, stressful job. In that respect I identify with Carl and his previous role. As is said in the site, "It is a pleasure to the person, and there is no cure for pleasure."
In section 11 there are two things that don't apply to me - I have never wondered about having a sex change and I never want to be seen as female but in the article that does come with the or of wearing skirts.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
I've heard it said that a woman marries a man hoping she can change him, and a man marries a woman hoping she will never change. Change is inevitable, to some extent for everyone. But for many of us, our revelation of interest in skirts, etc. was not made until we were in middle age and had been long wed, and possibly with children. I think it is that element that most puzzles and conflicts our spouses; that just as they were settling into a routine life they felt they could thrive in, or at least manage, from an emotional and intellectual standpoint, along comes hubby tossing a wrench into the machinery with something the lady of the house doesn't fully understand, and which the man may not be able to well articulate.
Carl was correct that men are less than expressive and tend to clam up and ignore problems. This is especially true when confronting feelings and desires for which we do not have a sense of language that can express what we want. However, it is not necessarily a bad thing to minimize your reaction to her reaction. Showing that you are not a different person from the man she knows may be helpful, ultimately. So I think there is little to lose in cautiously casual treatment. In other words: same guy, different clothing.
Too, when we finally state our simple perspective on the matter - that genderless, alternative, cross-aisle, radical, stereotype-challenging fashion is a passion that is awakening in us - it likely threatens our spouses' sense of stability in the relationships. The idea that her husband wants to dress as he does, that his desire bends gender lines in a sense, or that he has even developed an interest in clothing at all is something she was likely not prepared to confront. It is natural that a woman's reactions are more emotional than logical, but, in a sense, she is logically calculating a trajectory which she fears her husband is now taking. At the risk of sounding sexist, women naturally read between the lines, even if nothing exists there to be read. They are attune to subtext, but that assumes there is, in fact, a subtext.
In their defense (not defence, Carl, lol), however, our spouses have a lot invested in the relationships. Our emerging identities, expressed through clothing, were probably light years away from from anything they ever anticipated. We have to understand that much of the anger with which they react is born of fear; fear of loss; fear of confronting the unknown.
I don't know any sure-fire way to reassure a woman that she is not losing her spouse to a latent transformation of gender identity. To her, that seems the logical progression. How do you tell her that this is as far as it goes? You may not even know that in your own mind. Perhaps the best you can do is to tell her what you like and why you like it.
The hardest aspect for men, is likely the question Why? It is not a self-analysis with which we spend much time wrestling. Life continues; we simply seek what pleases us. But she needs/wants an analysis. She wants to be able to see the course that the future holds, despite the fact that you may not see that course any differently post-skirts than you did pre-skirts. So don't be too hard on your spouse for her inability or reluctance to understand you.
When you see her fears expressed in a way that seems selfish to you, e.g., the embarrassment of being seen in public with you wearing a skirt, you need to know that is only the tip of the iceberg, the part that can be seen above the surface of the deep blue sea. You ask why she doesn't want you to be happy? She will not articulate the simple answer, which is that she feels compelled, with regard to your interest, to "nip it in the bud". To her, it is a slippery slope, and her indulgence is only encouragement for her husband to slide farther down that slope, farther away from her. She doesn't realize that what appeals to you is far beyond her control. She was used to thinking of you only in the dimensions she could see. Finding out that there is another dimension, after all these years, is naturally unsettling to her. What else does she not know about her husband?
If I may step up on my soap box for a short rant, I contend that much of this goes back to the double-standard erected by traditional Feminism, which implies that women who strive to attain what men have are "liberated" but men who seek to attain what women have are "weak." I call it the self-loathing of the Feminist. With this attitude, traditional (60s-70s) Feminism still reflects belief in male superiority, by driving women to emulate men rather than promote a culture in which an individual of either sex, or neither sex, or of any gender self-identity, can be herself/himself without judgement and with equality under law. This is the prejudice we face, and it is often hidden, or not so hidden, in psyches of our own spouses.
I'd like to offer a cookbook solution, but there just isn't one. I have no great nuggets of wisdom to share, but only a couple words of advice. First, make sure your spouse knows she is your best friend, and that you would never want to leave that love and friendship behind. Let her know she is the person with whom you wish to grow old(er). If she can find that faith in you, things will be easier, but probably never perfect. Second, don't make yourself a milksop in the face of her objections; she needs to still see you as a man, so don't fear to gently reveal the testosterone in your nature. And you need to be able to respect your own manhood at the end of the day.
Otherwise, guys, you understand women about as well as I do, so best of luck!
As a matter of fact, the sun DOES shine out of my ...
I just had a thought. Is there anyone here that has a fully supportive wife? A wife who enjoys seeing her man wear skirts and even maybe a little more of the feminine accruements.
I would think that that would be absolutely wonderful. That is if it's even possible.
Well yes LGG I am the lucky in that my wife does like to see me in a skirt, she is very happy to see me out with her in one. To see me feminine I would think would be something else, I'm still that bearded male biker and I'm not so sure she would like that to change, I know I wouldn't.
LGG wrote:I just had a thought. Is there anyone here that has a fully supportive wife? A wife who enjoys seeing her man wear skirts and even maybe a little more of the feminine accruements.
I would think that that would be absolutely wonderful. That is if it's even possible.
I think I answered my own question by re-reading all of this thread. A few members do have support of their wives. I'm glad to hear it.
Gordon wrote:I think I answered my own question by re-reading all of this thread. A few members do have support of their wives. I'm glad to hear it.
Several members do have full support and backing from their Significant Others, but those are a bit of a rarity -- not so unlike guys that wear skirts in the first place. It takes a brave SO to fully back her SO in something so seemingly strange, and to those very unusual women I salute you!
Support for something as "odd" as a man who wears skirts without pretext or subtext takes guts as society as a whole (in the "mob mentality" case) will ascribe "meaning" to the act whether such was the skirt-wearer's intent or not, and the woman will be aware of that. So, that takes a lot of bravery, a lot of trust, and a lot of faith in her Significant Other that there is, in fact, no subtext. I don't imagine that's terribly easy.
Ideas die hard. Stupid ideas die even harder.
I wish I still had unflagging support and a rock I could lean on in times of crisis. However, as I'm alone now, all I have is myself and my inner circle of friends -- wo continue to amaze me.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
Guess I’m really one of the lucky few. God knows I’ve had the regular problems with previous girlfriends. However, my current girlfriend was supportive from the very first day and didn’t need much persuasion.
We’ve been living together for almost 1½ years now and so far I haven’t seen her budge one inch on her support. I really feel lucky and glad to have her. She will gladly suggest skirts for me to wear when we’re out and about shopping. Sometimes she even goes above and beyond in her suggestions for apparel sometimes that I even feel is a bit “too much” (always keen to at least give it a try most of the time, though).
Sometimes when we’re out and somebody has one too many funny looks, she can’t refrain herself from snarling at them, heh. I try to keep her calm and saying it’s alright though. The first people with an umbrella probably got some odd looks at first too…
