Taking Stock

[Stu]

I started coming to the old Tom's Cafe at least 15-years ago. I was a dedicated trouser-wearer and, to some extent, I still am. For most purposes, I prefer sticking on a pair of pants or jeans, but I was a bit curious as to what this "MIS" notion, as it was called, was all about. I'm glad I did because it challenged some of my thinking and we should all have our thinking challenged on a regular basis. On that premise, I would like to invite those who use this forum to spend a little time reflecting on some key questions about the identity of this site and its objectives - assuming we have these.

Let's start by asking who we are in terms of our interest in the topics raised here. In my case, I am a straight man, married with three grown-up kids. I like being a man and have no desire to dabble in things pertaining to womankind. That said, and in view of al the advances made by women, I think it is way past the time in our social development that some of the notions of manliness were examined and evaluated - and, in some cases, abandoned. While I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in most of the accoutrements of femininity (like lipstick, high heels etc), I do believe that females have appropriated far too many options for garments and, with a great deal of male complicity, denied these to men and boys. The simplest garment a human being can wear is a wrap/cape/shawl, but that is closely followed by the skirt - the notion that all simply tubes of cloth are confined to human beings who happen to have a uterus is not merely unnecessarily restrictive - it is absurd. I am aware that there are others on here who want more in terms of "fashion freedom" - and they want to see all bariers broken down. I respect their view, but I do not share it. I think that leads to the kind of genderless state advocated by some feminists and that is not where I want to go.

The next question I would pose relates to that last point - where do we want to go? What are our objectives? The danger here is that, with contributors like me on one side of the argument who wish to preserve gender differences while there are others on the opposite side who seek to erase them, we could end up pulling in opposite directions. No minority pressure group can hope to make any progress if it does not present a clear narrative and something close to a united front.

Thirdly, if we have such objectives, to what extent and in what ways does contributing to this forum assist in achieving our objectives? Or is that not its purpose? Is SkirtCafe simply a talking shop? If this is the case, then that is no bad thing: we should have such a forum to exchange information, ideas and views - but we must be clear that's all it is.

Lastly, I would ask what progress has been made since the inception of Tom's Cafe. We have seen businesses offering a range of kilts, including non-traditional ones like Utilikilts, and even a few offering men's or unisex skirts. We have seen some of the previous resistance to any suggestion of male skirt-wearing weakened through a host of examples from British schoolboys and Swedish bus drivers donning skirts in warm weather, to various fashion initiatives. However, any walk into a typical town or city centre will show that, aside from a handful of brave souls who post on here, men and boys are not wearing skirts as a rule and mainstream shops aren't marketing skirts for them to wear. The edifice of resistance has sustained a few holes, but it is largely intact.

So that's my food for thought. I have tried to avoid being overly negative, but I see some value in us taking stock of what we have achieved - and what remains to be achieved.

Stu

[Sinned]

St, I think that two of the objectives that you have omitted are ENCOURAGEMENT and SUPPORT. These aspects have been vital for me. I came to this site with some vague notion that to wear a skirt I had to dress as a female and the careful guidance of several members of this site has clarified my thoughts and given me goals and aims. Whilst my example of wearing a skirt may not influence any other man to wear a skirt at least I will show that the option is there and in conversation guide others to this site. In the last few years progress has been made and it is now not so much a stigma for a man to wear a skirt ( or even a dress ). Maybe it will take another 10 years for a man skirt to be fully accepted but in terms of the century or so that men skirts have been frowned upon that is not a bad time frame. MOH doesn't support my skirt wearing at the moment but there is a lot of INFORMATION on this site that I can use when the time is right and shortly I shall be abstracting the links and comments into a document for that purpose.

I want to look at the other side and ask what would be the situation if this site ( and other similar ones and pressure groups ) didn't exist even as a talking-shop? There would be a vacuum but I think that this site has a purpose and possibly become more important in the next few years. The objective surely must be not to have every man wearing a skirt but for it to be acceptable to wear one whenever is required. I admire you for asking the questions and would be interested in the thoughts of some more senior site members.

Dnns

[Jim]

Thanks for the thoughts and questions, Stu.

I, too, have no desire (99% of the time) to look feminine. I'm not loosing my beard. I both like the ideas of fashion freedom, and of women being able to choose to look feminine. I don't like people to try to look like a gender that's not theirs; it seems deceitful. An androgynous look, however, where people don't know, seems positive.

I wish I could wear a skirt more often, without the social stigma and sometimes serious push-back that it receives.

So, do I want to erase gender differences in clothing? Maybe in terms of what's allowed or accepted, but not in terms of general practice. A woman's top is usually different from a man's, and that reasonably affects clothing design. But then again, a woman should be able to be topfree without condemnation anywhere a man may do the same.

Where do we go from here? I don't see this as being more than a talking board; if some were to use it to get organized to have a more coherent movement towards the acceptance of men's skirts, great!

[Caultron]

I wish I could wear a skirt more often, without the social stigma and sometimes serious push-back that it receives.

What kind of push-back have you received?

So, Where do we go from here? I don't see this as being more than a talking board; if some were to use it to get organized to have a more coherent movement towards the acceptance of men's skirts, great!

What kind of actions do you propose?

[crfriend]

Thanks for posting that Stu.

Like yourself, I am a straight married guy (of better than a quarter century!) with no desire to appear or portray as a woman (I'd make a horrible one); however, I do see the denial of the simplest of garments -- and arguably the most comfortable -- to women as silly in the extreme. Making matters worse is the box that men put themselves into without really thinking about it. Of note is the modern mode of dress, which I call "Drab", that's fundamentally "unisex" (in the feminist mentality) and completely and utterly devoid of class or style. When will men be forced to abandon that as "feminine"? Where shall men go? Nudity? (It gets cold in these here parts.)

The Skirt Café exists, as is stated on the masthead, to "explore, promote, and advocate skirts and kilts as a fashion choice for men" -- and I don't see that changing any time soon. Note here that I am writing as an individual contributor, NOT in an official role. I see no reason for the role to change. The concept of skirts on men is "edgy" enough as is, and will likely remain so for the rest of many of the regulars' lives here in the community. But, that should not detract from the power of individuals to effect changes; every time I step off the back porch to go somewhere with "both legs down one pipe" I jar tender sensibilities. As you mention, this is an important facet in becoming fully aware. This can only help "the cause".

Like you, also, I do not wish to blur the line between man and woman; I rather like the distinction, although the inequality that it holds societally is repulsive to me. I also do not much like androgeny -- especially if it's poorly done, and most of the time it is. Humans expect visual cues as to what they're looking at, and if those cues aren't there it causes problems. Personally, I'm not likely to be visually confusing, save, just possibly, from directly astern where my beard isn't necessarily visible. And, if some guy gets wound up by the sight of a 6'4" hulk with long hair who happens to be wearing a skirt then he'll get a rude shock when I turn 'round. I've seen this cut up into 4 pieces:

• Masculine -- the gals check the character out
• Feminine -- the guys check the character out
• Androgenous (well done) -- both do, but are prepared to be disappointed one way or the other
• Unidentifiable -- everybody looks away

Cuts in clothing to enhance either the male or female form I feel should remain. But the one-tube/two-tube distinction I feel needs to be consigned to the dustbin once and for all. If the body is a temple, why should it be a sin to show it off a bit? For either sex. Why should we in the western world all -- both men and women now -- find ourselves consigned to the personality-destroying equivalent of garbage-bags exemplified by "modern style"?

Personally, when it comes to "options" in style (being distinct from "Fashion") I am not willing to take anything off the table. If a bloke wants to adopt heels I see no reason to countermand that. Ditto earrings, tattoos, makeup, &c. Why? What's the point? The breaking point for me is when one's personal style crosses the gender line completely and becomes a masquerade. Heck, I used to wear two-inch heels in the late 1970s -- as did many guys (this put my stature when shod at 6'6" -- but since most other guys were wearing similar things it all came out in the wash). I rather miss the option.

To me, it's about being myself and to be believable to others when I'm in my own skin. Nothing less will do.

[Jim]

I wish I could wear a skirt more often, without the social stigma and sometimes serious push-back that it receives.

What kind of push-back have you received?

Those at work saying that I have made those whom I supervise uncomfortable, having them respect me less as a supervisor.

What kind of actions do you propose?

I'm not proposing anything; If someone does, I'll probably just cheer from the sidelines.

[Caultron]

What kind of push-back have you received?

Those at work saying that I have made those whom I supervise uncomfortable, having them respect me less as a supervisor.

Now that's interesting. Usually the discussion here is whether the boss would allow a male employee to wear a skirt. But yeah, what would the employees think if the boss did?

What kind of employees do you supervise, and what have their actual reactions been?

[Grok]

While I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in most of the accoutrements of femininity (like lipstick, high heels etc), I am aware that there are others on here who want more in terms of "fashion freedom" - and they want to see all bariers broken down.

The next question I would pose relates to that last point - where do we want to go? What are our objectives? The danger here is that, with contributors like me on one side of the argument who wish to preserve gender differences while there are others on the opposite side who seek to erase them, we could end up pulling in opposite directions. No minority pressure group can hope to make any progress if it does not present a clear narrative and something close to a united front.

Is SkirtCafe simply a talking shop? If this is the case, then that is no bad thing: we should have such a forum to exchange information, ideas and views - but we must be clear that's all it is.


Stu

Actually, I don't believe that any member of this forum actually wants to erase all distinctions. If that were the case, this forum would, in effect, try to cater to both Bravehearts and the TV/CD crowd.

Members who are interested in more femme items are not trying to pass as women.

One would think that this forum could not work, yet somehow it does. Perhaps there is a unique chemistry in this group?

[DonaldG]

Another facet of this forum is that it enables us to meet up, in real life, with other skirt wearers. I met up with 3 other forum members a couple of weeks ago, we had a good time, turned a few heads and encouraged each other.
I think it is valuable to know that there are others in your area who feel like you, and to be able to make contact with them.

[Jim]

What kind of push-back have you received?

Those at work saying that I have made those whom I supervise uncomfortable, having them respect me less as a supervisor.

Now that's interesting. Usually the discussion here is whether the boss would allow a male employee to wear a skirt. But yeah, what would the employees think if the boss did?

What kind of employees do you supervise, and what have their actual reactions been?

I am a farm manager. I supervise interns and occasionally other temporary farm workers. They have not shown any reaction that I could notice. However, someone spoke to someone else on the management team, who also said it made him uncomfortable. The sense of others on the team, it appears, is that it is not good management practice for me to wear a skirt while with customers or employees.

[Caultron]

I am a farm manager. I supervise interns and occasionally other temporary farm workers. They have not shown any reaction that I could notice. However, someone spoke to someone else on the management team, who also said it made him uncomfortable. The sense of others on the team, it appears, is that it is not good management practice for me to wear a skirt while with customers or employees.

Ah yes, the old, "I have no objections but I'm afraid someone else might," platitude. Are you still wearing skirts at work and, "getting away with it," though?

[dillon]

I don't think we need to over-analyze this, or the varied reasons we read and post here. Fact is, we all have one reason in common, which is that we have tried on a skirt, kilt, dress, or other unbifurcated garment and found it to our liking. I don't need to ask anyone why he likes his skirts, nor would I shun anyone for his sincere answer. There have always been some who were not as comfortable with the diversity in this forum as others are, but does it really serve anyone to balkanize ourselves? Let there be strength in numbers, and do not let fear of the different divide us. Remember this: In the eyes of many, there is no difference between the most macho male in a skirt and the most effeminate; it is simply beyond them to reconcile any man's reason or desire to wear one. So why would we wish to cubby-hole ourselves? It serves no one to try and sort through everyone's psychologies. All it can do is make us paranoid and insecure and erect walls where there need be none. Just allow your unbifurcated brothers to be the unique, perhaps eccentric, individual that each of us is, and accept that there is a very wide and diverse universe of skirted men.

[Jim]

Ah yes, the old, "I have no objections but I'm afraid someone else might," platitude. Are you still wearing skirts at work and, "getting away with it," though?

Pretty cold here now, and less farm work. No interns our outside employees, just our long term team. My skirt excuse for work is comfort in hot weather. Now I'm more apt to be in coveralls. I still am in a skirt around the house where others on our team see me occasionally.