Different news Scotland and England

[Grok]

Even if the USA holds together, we should consider that the Great Recession may deepen into Great Depression II.

One of the few relatively painless ways to cope will be retrenchment from international affairs. Yes, there is discussion online about the USA shrinking down its involvement. This would include ending much of its overseas deployments. The effects on other countries might be similar to the collapse of the Soviet Union.

One possibility would be to finally withdraw all American forces from continental Europe. Would NATO become effectively defunct? How would countries respond to ensure their security?

What about East Asia? This is probably a more fateful question, because China is preparing to sink the U.S. Navy.

Conceivably the impact on the USA might be similar to Britain's situation in the aftermath of World War II-loss of superpower status abroad; austerity at home. The re-emergence of isolationist sentiment may make retrenchment palatable, but I suspect that our near future will feel like the Great Depression-harsh, gritty, bleak.

There is a further complication-American politics is at its most quarrelsome since the Civil War. Perhaps we should consider de-centralization of the USA?

The so called American Century is almost gone.

[Sinned]

Brad, complex question over Ireland, a lot of history and a simple answer may not be possible. Perhaps by saying that Northern Ireland contains a lot of Protestants and they wanted to stay as part of the United Kingdom and the rest of Ireland is Catholic and didn't because of some "bad experiences" with England in the past ( bad being invasion and wholesale slaughter ). Being segregated it was easy for there to be a separation into Ireland and Northern Ireland. With Scotland there isn't the same degree of segregation into the Nos and the Yesses so you can't exactly say well that area will stay and that area will leave. This is maybe over-simplifying and someone will probably correct me but for my simple mind it's enough.

[Ray]

Brad, Ireland IS independent! Look at a map. In fairness, it should be referred to as Eire.

As for the Scotland question, there's a lot of nonsense on this thread. Scotland does spend more per head, yes - 8.3% to a 7.9% population, but it contributes 8.9%. No wonder the rest of the UK are keen to cling on to Scotland. There's also 650,000 of us in other parts of the UK, making things work. Happy to provide references if required.

[Kirbstone]

It's nice for all of us all that we live at a time when anaesthetics & effective medicines & surgery are generally available. Also the Vote.

Nearly 100 years ago this was in both instances not the case in Ireland.

My father was a Medical student in Dublin during the immediate pre-independence period when the British ruled here via the Black & Tans.....the Hitler Youth/S.S. of the day. In one frightening incident aboard an open-topped tram he came within a hairs breath of being shot dead 'While trying to escape' would have been the Official Version.

It is indeed comforting that the Scots can resolve their issue in one day without anyone so much as slipping on a banana skin.

Tom

[skirtingtoday]

So it is a NO verdict with 2M votes and the YES camp having 1.6M votes. (split 55% to 45%)

I am obviously disappointed but considering two years ago the split was 70%-30%, we have come a long way to closing the gap.

The turnout was 84.6% was also extraordinarily high and credit to both campaigns to get their messages across and get voters out to the polling stations.

We'll have to wait and see what "new powers" may be handed over to Holyrood but there is already disquiet with the backbenchers at Westminster which could slow down any further powers being delegated.

[crfriend]

So it is a NO verdict with 2M votes and the YES camp having 1.6M votes. (split 55% to 45%)

Well, that's that, then. The unfortunate upshot is that the country was so divided. Usually things like this have to have overwhelming support to be viable; what we have today is roughly half the population who are happy and roughly half that are completely torqued off.

Here's hoping that the Scottish population has a higher percentage of adults than the US population and can continue to be civil to one another despite the difference of opinion. Here's hoping, too, that Westminster won't make hay over the decision and ride roughshod over the folks in the north.

[Sinned]

One thing that was said in one of the sessions this morning regarding the high turnout. Can't remember the exact words but it was to the effect that people are empowered to vote if they think that their vote would make a difference as in this Scottish referendum. Where you have a situation as in the English elections - 2 and a bit parties run by toffee-nosed yobs who wouldn't know the price of bread and milk if their lives depended on it, attending snob schools and elite Universities reading subjects like Classics and Politics that have no earthly use in the real world, and the party's manifestos are so bland and similar then what incentive have people got to go to the trouble of voting? They replace the Tories with Labour ( or vice versa ) only to find that the new lot are as bad or even worse than the ones vacating power. It's a case of the more that changes the more everything stays the same.

In terms of the width of the difference in percentages compared to what the polls were showing I suspect that in view of the depth of feeling and antagonism shown by both sides but reported to be mainly by the Yes campaign then a lot of people kept their opinions to themselves.

Whatever, I think the result was right and may have done the whole set of nations a good turn. Cloggie was talking last night about empowering Regions such as Yorkshire and rectifying the imbalance on the per capita contribution from central government and empowering the Counties more in raising their own taxes and so on. In other words FEDERALISM in a smaller scale. So to coin a slogan HOME RULE FOR YORKSHIRE! Well done Scotland - your gain may be our gain too.

[Kirbstone]

...and in the extreme South-West of Ireland, the Kingdon of Kerry, when I take over will put poles across all access roads and stamp passports on entry &c. The King himself is of course, King Puck, the mountain goat placed high on a platform in Killorglin town square to preside over it for 3 days during Puck Fair, and who stands guard over the bridge into the town, immortalised in bronze.

Democracy, What's that?, perhaps something cooked up in Westminster, the mother of all parliaments!

Tom

[Big and Bashful]

Yep, I think the high turnout showed that is the vote makes a real difference, people see that there is a point in voting and turn up, As mentioned, a normal election these days in the UK is very different, choosing a politician seems pointless when they are all promising almost the same things, are all dishonest, corrupt milionaires whoi just want to line their pockets. Lets face it, they are politicians therefore by definition none of them are worth voting for! hence the low turnout. This vote got me voting for only the second time in my life, I would have voted mor often, but only if I saw a party or person Ithought would be fit to be inpower.

As for Europe... What is the point in voting for MEPs? to my cynical brain they seem even more corrupt and less relevant than the UK Parliament. In Europe most of the things I hate are created, enacted and inflicted on us by the European Commission, who are not elected and who are the worst part of Europe, apart from claiming allowances and taking obcene wages, what do MEPs actually do?

Erm, I probably needed to get that off my chest! (Sitting here in my brand new StyleJ long black lined skirt, excellent! skirt).

[dillon]

The demographics of the vote suggest that maybe if the issue emerges again in a decade or so, the seccessionists may prevail. For this vote, the voting age was lowered to sixteen, presumably to skew the vote toward yes, as younger voters tended to support secession. However, it seems the older voters ruled the day; they opposed separation by a substantial margin. Possibly as that generation fades away the opinion of the voting population will shift, but of course people do change their minds over time. Perhaps if the population ages in the same proportion, the vote will remain the same?

[crfriend]

The demographics of the vote suggest that maybe if the issue emerges again in a decade or so, the seccessionists may prevail. For this vote, the voting age was lowered to sixteen, presumably to skew the vote toward yes, as younger voters tended to support secession.

If memory serves, Scotland makes use of the "Australian ballot" (secret voting in which no voter's submission is individually traceable) so the above assertion must have been based on "exit polling" strategies which are notoriously inaccurate as folks tend to lie when pressed for information after voting so as not to betray their position (or merely to have some fun with the pundits).

We shall see what the future holds. However, based on this particular ballot, and the fallout it's likely to cause, I'm not certain what the future may hold. All we know for the moment is what the "now" holds.

[Milfmog]

If memory serves, Scotland makes use of the "Australian ballot" (secret voting in which no voter's submission is individually traceable)

I don't know specifically about the referendum vote, but UK national and local elections are all "secret ballots" in so far as it is not easy to find out how an individual voted. However, every ballot paper is serialised and traceable, should a court grant a suitable order to permit that to be checked, so the way any individual voted is most certainly not untraceable.

Have fun,


Ian.

[Big and Bashful]

The polling card which you take to the polling station was serialised therefore traceable, however the actual polling erm ticket thing, I don't think they were serialised therefore I don't believe the papers can be linked to the individual voters.

[crfriend]

I don't know specifically about the referendum vote, but UK national and local elections are all "secret ballots" in so far as it is not easy to find out how an individual voted. However, every ballot paper is serialised and traceable, should a court grant a suitable order to permit that to be checked, so the way any individual voted is most certainly not untraceable.

I suspect that even given the serial number it'd be difficult to find out what individual cast a particular ballot. Sure they could narrow it down to a certain location and a rough block of time, but unless the serial number of the ballot is recorded alongside a voter's name (which here in the US gets a tick-box checked upon arrival to vote, and another list gets ticked at exit) then nailing it to a person would be a statistical game.

[Sinned]

Not surprisingly Alex Salmond has resigned. Inevitable in view of the country's rejection of his proposal. I wonder who his replacement will be? Now the political in-fighting has started about what was promised for Scotlandshire, the devolution of powers to the Regions and the position of Scottish MPs not being allowed to vote on issues pertaining to England in areas where powers were devolved to Scotland. Various views on whether or not this is even possible and of course the difficulty of removing currently 40 MPs from their party would make it virtually impossible for them to pass legislation in key areas. Since any changes will require fundamental reform it will be a case of watch this space.

Incidentally watching some footage of AS yesterday I was struck be his likeness to Boo Boo bear? Maybe it's just my perception or the way the lighting showed up his lowly features but the image remains. Sadly, agree with him or not, he had a passion for what he believed in.