It's not just me spouting off

[Sinned]

In the wake of the appointment of an arch-federalist as president of the EU I just have an odd thought that I hope in one way that Scotland do vote for separation. I just have a feeling that if that were to happen it may just precipitate early movement on the in/out referendum in England. I don't know why I have this feeling - I just do. Such important event have a way of bringing about all sorts of side-effects that haven't been thought about.

[Grok]

The Law of Unintended Consequences, Sinned. I suspect that this will apply if there should be a decisive "Yes" vote in Scotland.

[Grok]

On line, more observers have commented that the European Union is beginning to resemble the Holy Roman Empire.

[john62]

No we just want to escape our useless, badly behaving MPs and find a more sensible place to live.

John

[skirtingtoday]

Where the analogy falls down is the one absolutely huge elephant in the room - Europe. New Zealand doesn't have the equivalent. And whether Scotland separates from the UK, whether the UK comes out of the EU and whether Scotland is allowed into the EU does make a lot of difference over currency, borders etc.

I think the point of the article is that a country with a population lower than Scotland does all right.

And one very good point if the vote is for YES, that Scotland will at last have a parliament that we vote for. I have said in jest before that there are more pandas in Scotland (2) than Scottish conservative MP's (1) yet the Tories rule over us. 53.5% of the people in Scotland voted for the SNP last time, (Labour were second 28.7% and the Tories 3rd 11.6%). Because we have a proportional representation system in Scotland, there are some 15 Conservative MSP's considerably more that one under the first-past-the-post system.

In westminster the current number of MP's will be reduced from 650 to 600, 31 of these are in England, 7 from Scotland, 10 from Wales and two from N Ireland. Is this a fair reduction or an advocation of keeping the number of English MP's proportionally higher and hence reducing the influence of the other countries.

And on the EU, Scotland will not be thrown out of Europe. AS this situation has not arisen before, there will be intense discussions with Westminster and Brussels with the view that Scotland will become the 29th member of the EU when full independence is achieved (that would be after a further 2 years or so of negotiations following a YES vote.)

Scotland does not wish to be dragged out of Europe by Westminster.

And BTW, if UKIP does manage to create a huge surge and get into power at Westminster, the first thing that will go is the Scottish Parliament, and the Welsh and Irish assemblies.

[Sinned]

skrtngtdy,

And on the EU, Scotland will not be thrown out of Europe. AS this situation has not arisen before, there will be intense discussions with Westminster and Brussels with the view that Scotland will become the 29th member of the EU when full independence is achieved (that would be after a further 2 years or so of negotiations following a YES vote.)

Scotland does not wish to be dragged out of Europe by Westminster.

And BTW, if UKIP does manage to create a huge surge and get into power at Westminster, the first thing that will go is the Scottish Parliament, and the Welsh and Irish assemblies.

Don't want to disagree with you but what you have just said is PURE SPECULATION. You haven't got a pipeline into the future. It's just your GUESS as to what will happen. You don't KNOW FOR DEFINITE that Scotland won't be thrown out of Europe. Have you got a personal telephone line to Ms Muckel? Yes there may be a lot of discussions but you don't know the outcome and neither do I. And do you personally speak for ALL of your countrymen about whether Scotland even wants to stay in Europe. That may be YOUR stance but there are a lot that disagree. And as for UKIP I doubt that there's a cat's chance of them getting into power - I suspect that they would be happy with a handful of MPs but then again that's just my guess. And what happens to the Welsh and Irish Assemblies, well that's another discussion completely.

In fact as this is the third propaganda missive from skrtngtdy ( the other two being Bannockburn and Don't have nightmares ) I think it's about time the Moderators stepped in and drew a line under the "no sex, politics, religion and guns" rule as this is getting to be more a Scotland YES campaign.

I fully expect this entry to be pulled but I don't apologise for it.

Dennis

[Grok]

I think that moderator input would be good at this point. I know that discussion of politics is discouraged in a variety of forums, being deemed disruptive.

[Uncle Al]

[Mod Hat On]

Several members have requested this topic be removed.
I agree that a few feathers may have been ruffled up a bit.
I do not agree that the topic needs to be removed but
will be locked instead as it has not died a peaceful death
on its own.

Remember - Political and Religious discussion,
once getting out of hand, will be locked
Forum Rules -
2. No politics, unless related to skirts/kilts.
No religion, unless related to skirts/kilts.
These topics were banned because they
lead to endless flame wars.

Sorry to have to do this, but I hereby LOCK this thread.

[Itchy Mod Hat OFF]

Uncle Al

[crfriend]

I have a couple of last thoughts on this from a very personal perspective, and in the sense of complete disclosure I'd like to share them.

1) In quite some sense, until requests for shutting down the thread started cropping up, the discourse stayed pretty well on topic and remained focused on the topic at hand without getting personal and going after individual personalities.

2) Posting was pretty well confined to those who would be directly impacted by the outcome of the referendum. Whilst I am personally somewhat interested in the outcome, I also wish all parties the best no matter what the vote finally tallies and hope that calm heads and sanity prevail at the end of the day.

3) If the Scots vote to secede from the UK, I hope it goes better than have a few other attempts in history. We had a bit of that in the 1850s here in the USA which did not end well at all with well over a half-million dead and wounds that still fester to this day. I don't anticipate that sort of outcome between Scotland and England, but I rather suspect that part of the world does not want another round of nastiness that festered for decades when Ireland left.

4) Finally, and in this I am most assuredly not second-guessing Al, calls to shut down a thread because you do not agree with its content amount to censorship. If you don't like something, either form and present a cogent rebuttal and engage in a vigourous debate on the matter or push the "Ignore" button. It is worth recalling that if we are never presented with arguments in favour of something we do not think is correct our own beliefs (views held sometimes without factual justification) merely become reinforced; challenge is good for both sides so long as everybody remains civil. The key is to engage the brain before swinging the hammer. The main reason this site exists is to assist the men who wish to push back on society's belief that only women wear skirts -- and every time we go out the door so dressed we become an argument that is very much putting a stick in society's eye. Would it be right for a worldwide ban on men wearing skirts with the punishment being banishment to some unpleasant (more unpleasant than society in general, mind) place or have our very existence shut off? Think about it.