Love my wife

[crfriend]

So your daughter thinks it's OK for dad but not her own son--double standard.

None of us like the double-standard, but it's important to recognize that it is there and it is the prevailing viewpoint. What we do every time we step out the door in our skirts is to defy that "standard" and get folks to thinking -- and sometimes folks don't like being challenged.

Sounds like 'Mom' has really influenced her. Daughter is still thinking in stereotypes. Men in pants/trousers ONLY. Women in ANYTHING.

Fashions change over time, sometimes quickly and sometimes glacially -- but they do change -- and we can help change them. Will skirts on guys become commonplace in my lifetime? I don't know, and much of that depends on how much I've got left. There's a part of me that would like to say, "No." mainly because it'd steal some of my thunder; what I would like to see is when a bloke in a skirt is unremarkable (unless it's something really well done).

Look at the animal species. The male is the dominant, colorful animal. The female has the subdued coloration allowing her to hide in a nest/forest and not be seen protecting her young.

It's also worth noting that male lifespans are typically measured in "significant portions" of the female's lifespan; in the wild, part of that is due to predation -- predators catch what they can see.

[Sinned]

Thanks guys,

Over the relatively short time I have known you, you have changed my perspective on wearing a skirt and given me lots of ideas for discussion. And I do hope that over the course of the holidays I will get time to discuss and not lecture or argue and to convince them that wearing a skirt isn't the perverted activity they think it is but just a natural alternative item of clothing. If they can just tolerate or accept for now ( and especially if I get positive or neutral reactions whist on holiday ) that the wearing of a skirt is now a part of who I am then I will be satisfied. What I don't want is for this to ruin a potentially good holiday ( although for me not wearing a skirt at all would probably dampen but not ruin it ) and for them to return more entrenched in their viewpoints than before. I must also be careful to also wear shorts to show that I don't want to wear a skirt all the time. I am looking forward to wearing skirts especially as the weather in Sheikh el Sharm is due to be in the mid to high thirties and so coolness and comfort ARE important. I nearly forgot - I do nave her permission to wear a couple of sarongs that she has given me so I will probably start out with them then venture to the pool on my own in a skirt proper for them to join me shortly thereafter and then ease into things from there. Sensitivity I need to show but give a little they need to as well. I would like to look on the positive and think that only good will come out of this.

Dennis

[skirtilator]

None of us like the double-standard, but it's important to recognize that it is there and it is the prevailing viewpoint. What we do every time we step out the door in our skirts is to defy that "standard" and get folks to thinking -- and sometimes folks don't like being challenged.

You have to challenge peoples' irrationality in order to separate the dangerous people from the dull ones. Dangerous are people whose principle is to oppose reason and evidence. Those who think the ends justify the means. Better leave those predators behind.

[Dynamo]

It is funny, in the past my mother in law has bought skirts for me quite regularly. She "get's it". My own mother on the other hand LOL!!!!!

[Milfmog]

Enjoy Sharm Dennis,

I have worn sarongs and Utilikilts there without problems. You should expect some banter from the shop keepers as they try to get you into their shops. Remarks about Scotland, Robert the Bruce or similar were common and, accepted with good humour caused no concern for my more expensive half. I did have one occasion when a local attempted to lift the hem of a kilt; he learned pretty quickly that it would be unwise to push his luck and backed down. (Just body language and attitude; no actual threat or physical response on my part.)

The UK in particular was the opening for many great conversations in bars and restaurants while over there; a real ice breaker and a great bonus for a basically shy guy like myself. I only took one sarong which was a mistake; Carole kept borrowing it. Next time I will take a couple out on the boats with me so I still have something to keep the sun off my legs out on the boats, even if the sarong has been nabbed. (The sarong was also "borrowed" a couple of times by other women on the dive boats when Carole was not wearing it; maybe two spares is the solution, they are light enough to allow me to carry a few.)

Have fun,


Ian.

PS If you venture out on any desert trips take the sarong in a bag as wind / sun protection that can be put on over shorts. It may allow you to be "forced" to demonstrate the real advantages of a sarong over more humdrum men's clothing.

PPS The kilt is great for flying in, far more pleasant for five hours sat in a small space unable to move much and I always seem to get better service from cabin and ground staff when skirted than I do when trousered.

[Sinned]

Hi n,

We have been to Tunisia and Egypt already so we know about the shopkeepers. Except in the new malls where things seem much more westernised. I aim to enjoy the sarongs certainly early on in the holiday and the skirts as and when I can. I'm just hoping that there isn't any unpleasantness from the family. Not expecting anything from anyone else. I am not taking anything that remotely looks like a kilt so I'm not expecting any Scottish remarks. Must get on got some housework to do before MOH comes home from work.

Dennis

[BobM]

I believe that it's worth reiterating at this point that we cannot overcome an irrational thought or fear with logic or intellect -- it just doesn't work.

We can work out what the potential consequences of us being -- or at least appearing -- different from others may be, and we can work on tactics to manage any risk involved. In doing this we are being entirely rational, even though we may emotionally enjoy the sensations of an open garment.

The flip side of this is a very human fear of change, and sometimes that fear can paralyze us in any attempt to deploy our rational selves to a problem. Logic and rational thought have quite a lower chance of changing an irrationally (and I use that term in its purest sense, not in a derogatory manner) held notion than the latter has of changing the former. Rational thought must always be willing to accept failure and adopt revisions; this is not the case with emotions, and it's clear that in this case fear is involved -- specifically fear that "the OH" will suffer the consequences (whatever those may be) of her husband's appearing different from he herd around him. This is entirely understandable.

In short, using intellect to combat emotion is doomed to fail. "Been there, done that", and failed at it -- repeatedly, which is why I have the stance I do.

The only way to deal with a fear is to accept that it's irrational and stare it down forcefully. A much brighter guy than I'll ever be summed it up thusly: "Courage is not absence of fear, courage is mastery of fear." Sometimes that means getting very deliberately outside one's own comfort zone to experience, first-hand, what happens.

Very well put, Carl. As we see in our daily lives, emotion trumps reason and logic most every time. On other (political) forums I have discussed at length the reasons for the rise of the welfare state in the West, and it always comes down to irrational, emotional arguments prevailing over reason and logic.

[skirtyscot]

I'm thinking of changing my name to "Oua", just to see what Sinned calls me when replying to one of my posts!

[Sinned]

Hi ,

I got the idea from one of my colleagues at work on their intranet. He used to omit the vowels and it just went from there. Nothing malicious - just a bit of fun.

Dnns

[skirtilator]

Very well put, Carl. As we see in our daily lives, emotion trumps reason and logic most every time. On other (political) forums I have discussed at length the reasons for the rise of the welfare state in the West, and it always comes down to irrational, emotional arguments prevailing over reason and logic.

If you follow to the root of the cause of the outrage you'll end up with people's shitty childhood experience, as Stefan Molyneux stated. These reactions aren't normal.

[crfriend]

If you follow to the root of the cause of the outrage you'll end up with people's shitty childhood experience, as Stefan Molyneux stated. These reactions aren't normal.

Well, the reactions could be considered normal if the majority of children had lousy "childhood experiences"; however, I would tend to speculate that most folks didn't have uniformly dour formative years so I suspect that there's something else in play.

From personal experience, and observations of a few other people, I can honestly (if not, perhaps in the truest sense, factually) say that the more a child is encouraged to be actively curious about the world around them when they're very young -- and to trust their experiences in making decisions -- then one winds up with open-minded adults who feel free to question "received wisdom" in many areas and perhaps not be so judgmental as those who had the "received wisdom" beaten into them as children.

As far as the other poster's comment about Western "welfare states" goes, I'd like to point up that humans band into civilisations and states to look after the safety of those belonging to the state. This keeps the "Law of the Jungle" from reigning supreme and allows more members of the society to contribute in meaningful and creative ways than would otherwise be the case. Following that logic, there should be some form of "lower bound" beneath which people are not allowed to fall (this used to be known as the "safety-net"); this is nothing more than humanity looking after itself (recall that societies do not function without some level of altruism). Some societies understand this; tragically, some do not.

[inohio10]

I am all about wearing what one chooses to. If your other half is not on board, can you try wearing around the house? It is not in public and they might get used to the idea. If they are totally against it is it worth pushing at the risk of the relationship? I am not saying one way or the other. I got lucky and found someone who is supportive, and who even bought me my first two skirts (utilikilt not withstanding) as not to make a fashion fool of myself my goal is to look like a guy who wears skirts not trying to pass myself as a girl. I look for colors that I would normally wear. I decided I like longer skirts and have came to the conclusion that yes almost all have some femimine style to them so it can be challanging to find something that I can wear as a guy who is wearing a skirt and not a guy trying to look girly. Perhaps this is her fear?

[inohio10]

And perhaps I missed the answer but have you sat down with her and asked her what her adversion is? What is her fear or concerns? Not saying it will help in the skirt wearing part, however open communication may lead down that path one day.

[Sinned]

Well, it has been coming for a wile now but I finally lost it. She had condemned my wanting to wear a skirt on holiday trotting out tall the usual things. People will think I'm a pansy, I'm queer and people will beat me up and so on. I can't quote everything she said but it was quite a lengthy discourse and I'm sure that you've heard it all before. I said nowt. I just took my skirts upstairs. After an afternoon of her trying to pretend that everything was normal - it wasn't - I took all my clothes out of the suitcase, threw them across the room and said, ( more or less ) "Since I need your permission as to what clothes I'm to wear put in the suitcase anything I am allowed to wear irrespective of what I WANT to wear." I walked out and now that I'm back she's nowhere to be found and my clothes are still where they were. Not sure what's happening now or where she is but I don't really care at the moment. I suspect that you have all known that it was coming- not if but when.

[Kirbstone]

Is a row like you describe really worth it, Dennis? I understood you were about to embark on a very expensive foreign holiday together with family and why spoil it?
I'm all for keeping the peace even if it involves swallowing one's perhaps selfish desires and accepting what other people feel.

There there, who am I to preach. I do my skirting in private and don't bother anyone. At my age I'm no campaigner or flag waver.

T.