XP support

[Sinned]

I see that 8th April 2014 is the end of support for Windoze XP yet in my travels I see a lot of computers in small and really enormous organisations such as the NHS that are still running XP Professional. Since moving up is not a trivial operation and having been involved in two such upgrades ( that's two too many ) there's an awful lot of research, planning, testing and headaches. Assuring application compatibility is a tangled web. Configurations can be a nightmare and there's so many groups to create and people who expect induhvidual on-off setups that they never use ( generally senior managers/directors who have secretaries as gofers ). I know that XP is stable ( at least the ones that I have supported have been after all the patches ) and 7 is stable but the interfaces and support is different between the two of them. Just training people where the same things are in different places in the systems takes a heck of a lot of resources. And with 8 along the line that is as different again. Where will most companies stop - 7 and what happens when support of 7 stops? Fortunately that's not something I have to worry about at the moment. {Brushes brow with back of hand.}

[crfriend]

Caution: This is a bit of a rant. You have been warned.

I see that 8th April 2014 is the end of support for Windoze XP yet in my travels I see a lot of computers in small and really enormous organisations such as the NHS that are still running XP Professional.

One of my "tiny machines" (a Sony Vaio netbook) runs XP Confessional and serves as the main data-channel between my digi-cam and my internal environment -- running something that likely won't run on my larger laptop that runs -7. The latter device now needs an external keyboard as the internal keyboard-controller drops an entire diagonal row of keys -- this "limits" its use as a portable device and I can't get anything new with -7 on it and I cannot stomach the thought of going to -8.

When support for XP is dropped I'll create a secured subnet at home in which to work the netbook on.

Just training people where the same things are in different places in the systems takes a heck of a lot of resources. And with 8 along the line that is as different again. Where will most companies stop - 7 and what happens when support of 7 stops? Fortunately that's not something I have to worry about at the moment. {Brushes brow with back of hand.}

I'm going to go out on a limb here and speculate that we may be seeing the beginning of the end for Microsoft's domination of the computing sphere. Windows 8 has been an utter disaster -- both for Microsoft and for hardware manufacturers. At last count I think sales of new systems, lap- and desk- top both, have been off by over a third; that's enormous and will likely take a couple of the less-successful manufacturers down.

The underlying kernel beneath the GUI, and the API (Application Programming Interface) to that kernel, remain reasonably unchanged -- so Microsoft might be able to save some face by making the Windows-7 user interface (the "shell") available to those who've "upgraded" to Windows 8. However, that'd require them admitting to a positively massive -- and stupid -- mistake in changing the shell. The end user doesn't have to give a fig about the internal APIs so long as they don't change every time the wind does. However, the end user does care if the GUI changes, and if the GUI idiom doesn't align with the familiar way of doing things -- or, worse, doesn't even align with the hardware platform -- then there's a real problem.

I rather suspect that Ballmer shot Microsoft in the foot with the "one GUI to rule them all" and that's why he's on his way out. If I was on the Microsoft Board of Directors I'd have been calling for him to be walked off the premises by security rather than being "allowed to retire". Hint, Steve, a laptop is different, although subtly in many ways, from a desktop -- and both of those are VERY different from tablets. To start with, desktop and laptop machines don't have touch-screens. Tablets are fine for consumers of content. They suck for creators of content because they lack keyboards.

On touch-screens. They're a cute idea for those who don't have oily skin. Back when I was carrying the "smart 'phone" for my ex-employer I spent more time cleaning the screen than actually using the device. All a "tablet" computer would do is increase the surface-area to get dirty.

[Caultron]

I certainly agree that 95% of what you get in a Windows upgrade is the same stuff as before, except that it's all moved around so you can't find it.

Desktop PCs will take a long time to fade away, but they're destined to decline. No one wants to use a desktop PC for making phone calls or taking photos, either, and web surfing, email, and texting are clearly moving off the desktop and onto smartphones. But even so, no one wants to use their phone to write a book or crank a spreadsheet or design a presentation. And so we're going to have both platforms.

Windows has been very good for Microsoft, and they're obviously having a hard time giving it up. But every attempt so far to create a Windows smartphone has failed, and I suspect the current offering will do so as well. But for Microsoft, looking to preserve Windows, if the only tool you've got is a hammer, every job looks like a nail.

As for Steve Balmer, I agree that falling desktop sales without corresponding gains in smartphone sales is probably what did him in.

[Big and Bashful]

At work we are still on Windoze XP and Microshaft Orifice 2003, within the next year they are talking about upgrading to Orifice 2010, I have Orifice 2010 at home and am looking forward to the upgrade, not because I like 2010, but because they will offer some training to people who like me are used to menus and buttons. I used to know how to get a lot out of Word, Excel, Access etc. but with this 2010 I spend all my time trying to find out how to do what I used to do without thinking. Hell, I used to teach people how to use the 2002 versions and earlier.
I see Windows 8 in shops and am resigned to sticking with my current hardware then either jumping to Linux or to something fruity.

[Tor]

I see Windows 8 in shops and am resigned to sticking with my current hardware then either jumping to Linux or to something fruity.

You can start trying the former option right away through live CDs (limited in letting you get to know the system, but helpful in trialing something), dual boot (involves resizing partitions, and can take a fair amount of hard drive space), or virtualization if your computer is new enough (takes a fair amount of free ram and processor). The last option is kind of nice if you can do it because it lets you play with a new system without disturbing your open windows in the host system. For windows, you can get Virtualbox and try systems out with about as low a risk as possible (probably on par with that of installing and running any other decent program - certainly a good deal less than fiddling with partitions).

As to the latter option, I'm no great fan of either apple or the mac user interface. Osx is at least Unix underneath, which means it plays nicer around here than windows. On the visible side, however, that dock is, in my view, dreadful. Window switching will probably drive you bonkers for at least a time, especially if you are used to using the keyboard shortcuts. As for the menus all at the top of the screen: Maybe OK if you have a small screen, but with a big screen your mouse can be scurrying all over the place - couple that with the dearth of keyboard accessibility and you've got a headache if you're used to driving those menus with the keyboard. Mice are all well and good where they make sense, but if you can do it with the keyboard and learn the commands you'll probably be much happier.

[Zorba]

No one wants to use a desktop PC for making phone calls or taking photos, either, and web surfing, email, and texting are clearly moving off the desktop and onto smartphones.

I use a phone for making phone calls - and a camera for taking pictures. I don't try to place phone calls with my camera, or vice versa...

As for web and email - phones are too small and too limited. I'd want at the very least a tablet for those tasks, but might as well give me a laptop that I can do more with...

My wife wanted a "new computer" last year, we took a very hard look at the iPad. We both really wanted to like it, but in the end it was just too limited, so she got a netbook which she really loves. Screen's a bit too small for my taste, but it has a real keyboard and no built-in limitations.

I have a netbook for carry around duty, but I really insist on a desktop for real work.

[Big and Bashful]

I see Windows 8 in shops and am resigned to sticking with my current hardware then either jumping to Linux or to something fruity.

You can start trying the former option right away through live CDs (limited in letting you get to know the system, but helpful in trialing something), dual boot (involves resizing partitions, and can take a fair amount of hard drive space), or virtualization if your computer is new enough (takes a fair amount of free ram and processor). The last option is kind of nice if you can do it because it lets you play with a new system without disturbing your open windows in the host system. For windows, you can get Virtualbox and try systems out with about as low a risk as possible (probably on par with that of installing and running any other decent program - certainly a good deal less than fiddling with partitions).

As to the latter option, I'm no great fan of either apple or the mac user interface. Osx is at least Unix underneath, which means it plays nicer around here than windows. On the visible side, however, that dock is, in my view, dreadful. Window switching will probably drive you bonkers for at least a time, especially if you are used to using the keyboard shortcuts. As for the menus all at the top of the screen: Maybe OK if you have a small screen, but with a big screen your mouse can be scurrying all over the place - couple that with the dearth of keyboard accessibility and you've got a headache if you're used to driving those menus with the keyboard. Mice are all well and good where they make sense, but if you can do it with the keyboard and learn the commands you'll probably be much happier.

I have dabbled with Linux quite a few times, but I have always binned it and reverted to Windows, I have Office, I have many simulators, I have many software doodads installed on Windows. I am kind of caught by the short and curlies. It's a bit like my use of iPad and iPhone, having spent hundreds over the years on Apps including an assortment of marine navigation charting Apps, all on the iThings through iTunes, I don't like the thought of buying an Andrex device and starting from scratch. Although Sony's latest waterproof phone does tempt me, I am not going to start again from scratch. Ho hum!

[Tor]

Now that you mention it, I seem to recall your mentioning having tried GNU/Linux before. Maybe my suggestions will prove more useful to someone else. I ended up switching from XP to GNU/Liunx cold turkey back in 2007. I tried to install a dual boot and ran into a bug I later figured out how to deal wih (and which has since been fixed by sidestepping the issue altogether), so I reinstalled windows at the same time. Never wanted windows enough after that to get the install up and running, so it languished for a couple years until I reformatted it's partition to use it for something else. No regrets.

I'll admit that I was already using Thunderbird, Firefox, and Openoffice, which made the switch a lot easier. Nor could I be reasonably described as a gamer. That leaves relatively little to keep me to windows.

[skirted_in_SF]

The latter device now needs an external keyboard as the internal keyboard-controller drops an entire diagonal row of keys -- this "limits" its use as a portable device and I can't get anything new with -7 on it and I cannot stomach the thought of going to -8.

The last flyers from Dell that I got in one of my newspapers still offered new computers with Win7 installed. That was within the last month or six weeks. I bought one a couple of years ago with a multi-way card reader so I can just remove the SD card from my Nikon, stick it in the right slot and pull all my pictures off.

[Kilted_John]

I see Windows 8 in shops and am resigned to sticking with my current hardware then either jumping to Linux or to something fruity.

You can start trying the former option right away through live CDs (limited in letting you get to know the system, but helpful in trialing something), dual boot (involves resizing partitions, and can take a fair amount of hard drive space), or virtualization if your computer is new enough (takes a fair amount of free ram and processor). The last option is kind of nice if you can do it because it lets you play with a new system without disturbing your open windows in the host system. For windows, you can get Virtualbox and try systems out with about as low a risk as possible (probably on par with that of installing and running any other decent program - certainly a good deal less than fiddling with partitions).

As to the latter option, I'm no great fan of either apple or the mac user interface. Osx is at least Unix underneath, which means it plays nicer around here than windows. On the visible side, however, that dock is, in my view, dreadful. Window switching will probably drive you bonkers for at least a time, especially if you are used to using the keyboard shortcuts. As for the menus all at the top of the screen: Maybe OK if you have a small screen, but with a big screen your mouse can be scurrying all over the place - couple that with the dearth of keyboard accessibility and you've got a headache if you're used to driving those menus with the keyboard. Mice are all well and good where they make sense, but if you can do it with the keyboard and learn the commands you'll probably be much happier.

On OS X, to switch between between applications, you can use command-tab, which works just like alt-tab on a PC. The only thing it doesn't do is allow you to switch between windows in an application. Something that the "Window" menu item handles, and has handled since 1984... The dock isn't much different than the taskbar in Windows, if you have programs pinned to it. Also, if you want to quit an application, just hit command-Q. Unlike Windows, where it can be Ctrl-Q for some applications, Alt-F4 for others, and Ctrl-W for Firefox. To get special characters, hold down the option key, and either hit the key you want, or hit it twice, depending on what kind of character you're looking for. No Alt-0xxx codes to remember. Most, if not all keyboard shortcuts you use with the Ctrl key in Windows are done with the command key, and are the same letter between the two OS environments. There's also the ability to control the menu bar with the keyboard. Hold down Control, then hit F2. Use the cursor keys, just like if you'd hit the Alt key on Windows. Or, type the first letter of the menu you want. So, not much different than Windows. Just a bit more polished, as per usual. Although, I could do without the anti-aliased fonts. OS 9 and earlier have clearer fonts than OS X.

-J

[Big and Bashful]

iHAVE NEVER FONDLED AN aPPLE, oH Damn the caps lock key! anyway, maybe Microsoft will see sense with a future version of Windows, before they disappear completely, I don't fancy throwing all my programmes and games away just because Microsoft have decided to model an interface on fingerprints and baby lego!

[Sinned]

It's interesting to read other people's experiences and what systems they have. I use a laptop which is ok for a lot but I think that the next machine I buy will be a dusttop. At least I know where to come to for advice!

I have heard, but don't know for sure, that the W8 licence allows the reversion to a W7 download. But Microshaft isn't letting on as to how many have used this thus keeping "official" sales figures of W8 appear higher than they probably are. Perhaps someone can confirm this.

[Tor]

As it happens, I do have experience with OSX. My complaints on keyboard shortcuts are from searching long and hard to find the shortcut - sometimes eventually finding someone mentioning it in a post on the internet, and sometimes coming up blank even then.

On OS X, to switch between between applications, you can use command-tab, which works just like alt-tab on a PC. The only thing it doesn't do is allow you to switch between windows in an application. Something that the "Window" menu item handles, and has handled since 1984...

And where is the keyboard access to the "Window" menu (edit before posting: I see you are the first source to divulge this information, even if the mac version is a little harder to use)? And have you experienced the disarray of your nicely stacked windows cmd-tab produces when you have a half dozen windows each of more than one program visible - not to mention those in the dock that this doesn't effect?

The dock isn't much different than the taskbar in Windows, if you have programs pinned to it. Also, if you want to quit an application, just hit command-Q. Unlike Windows, where it can be Ctrl-Q for some applications, Alt-F4 for others, and Ctrl-W for Firefox.

Each of those shortcuts is implemented differently and has a different purpose. True, there is no system implemented application close in windows, but that's a small loss. M-F4 (or alt-F4 if you prefer:)) is a system "close window" command - albeit often trapped by applications, usually to warn of an unsaved document. ^w (or ctrl-w) is an application implemented command, used to close either the current tab, or, in an untabbed window or with only one tab, a window close - exactly as cmd-w works on a mac.

As for the dock - yes it is a great deal different than the windows taskbar. Most obvious is the dearth of text to disambiguate the quarter dozen windows that look identical in thumbnail mode - and you can't even pick them from the rest of the dozen windows of that application without dragging your mouse across them. Add to that that if your window is open but hidden behind something else you can search the dock forever without finding it, and that windows on the dock /never/ maintain their place. All the required components for brain-damage, by my standards. (In case you are wondering, I can and will have a few dozen windows open on one desktop, with more on alternate ones for other tasks. These days I try to limit myself to thirty per desktop because that is as much as ratpoison handles well the way I've set it up. Though I just reminded myself that I can easily add another ten to that number.)

To get special characters, hold down the option key, and either hit the key you want, or hit it twice, depending on what kind of character you're looking for. No Alt-0xxx codes to remember. Most, if not all keyboard shortcuts you use with the Ctrl key in Windows are done with the command key, and are the same letter between the two OS environments. There's also the ability to control the menu bar with the keyboard. Hold down Control, then hit F2. Use the cursor keys, just like if you'd hit the Alt key on Windows. Or, type the first letter of the menu you want. So, not much different than Windows. Just a bit more polished, as per usual. Although, I could do without the anti-aliased fonts. OS 9 and earlier have clearer fonts than OS X.

Special characters work the same way (if not better) using the compose key in GNU/Linux: Hit the compose key, and then the keys appropriate to the special character. A vast array of symbols is available, usually with fairly obvious constituents.

As for keyboard driven menus, you are the first person I am aware of who knows the secret you just let out. I've been around macs for years (though never used them as my primary system) - and tend to consider them much improved when I'm logged into them via SSH from my own GNU/Linux system as opposed to working at the local console. I've been known to use the fish:// protocol from another computer to move files around in order to get around the evil finder - yes, I know there are surely improved file managers available, which I would have to seek out were I forced to use a mac. Of course, I'm quite sure were I forced to go back to the windows that I've hardly touched in seven years I'd find it at least as brain-damaged as osx. Not that I have reason to try, but I have a sneaking suspicion that allowing for keeping things like bash and emacs RCs (that I'd want to take with me regardless), it would take me an order of magnitude more time to get either windows or osx running as a satisfactory primary os for me - though the latter would /probably/ be a bit easier. When it comes to other peoples machines around here, I much prefer osx to windows, thanks to the BSD core, though.

[Kilted_John]

Hmmm, have used both Windows and Mac for over 15 years as a self-employed computer tech. Never have had the disarray of windows in every app problem on OS X. Granted, I frequently use the option key when I double click on a folder to close the enclosing folder. And, yes, the dock is very much like the Quick Launch bar in the taskbar in Windows. I have both a Win 7 notebook and a Mac OS X notebook. Don't really have problems switching back and forth between the two.

But, hey, if you're used to Windows and want to stick with it, or want to use Linux (which I've also had some exposure to and have considered installing instead of Win 7, due to issues I had with the install on my Dell), there's no one forcing you to use OS X. In my case, I prefer the Mac OS, after being exposed to both of the mainstream operating systems.

-J

[Tor]

The disarray of windows I refer to is being unable to have a collection of windows up (not minimized) and readily switch between two windows of different application with the keyboard without a great deal of useless and annoying screen changing. Ever have, say, a web browser window and a word processor window you're working between? If so, consider how cmd-tab to switch between them operates: /all/ of the windows of each respective window are raised with each click, likely hiding the window of the other program you probably wish to cross-reference at the same time. How about switching between two windows of the same program? Easy - unless you are on osx, where the key sequence (IIUC from your post) is ctrl-F2, then w, then (if you're lucky) a letter/number key, or if not running around with the arrow keys till you (hopefully) hit the window you want.

As to your use of the option key when opening a directory, how about the two pane directory tree and directory view of good file managers (even windows explorer has this), that has no proper match in finder? No vast array of windows created then.

As it happens, I sat down at my computer, typed my password, read another site, switched to SC, read another post, read this one, composed this message, and (expect to) post it - and if memory serves, my mouse has in that time moved not even a sixteenth of on inch. Mice are all well and good for certain things, and osx may have much better keyboard support than macs used to, but I'll stick with something that fits my preferred mode of interaction with a computer much better. Conkerer and Ratpoison as browser and window manager are (to me) quite an excellent pair. Haven't managed to find a suitable replacement for Thunderbird yet. I do sometimes compose emails in emacs because of the dearth of key commands in Thunderbird (also, the ones that are there are misplaced to my fingers nowadays. Having several new message windows pop up when I wanted to do was move the cursor down a few lines gets old /really/ fast.)

On comparing the dock and quick launch - fair enough for that section. Never seen a modern {dock|taskbar|panel} that didn't have a quick launch of that sort - and they all seem to work pretty much the same. To be fair, I really don't use them and never really have - probably largely because I've tended to use the keyboard for everything I can for over a decade now.