For thoose who it concerns ...

[RichardA]

It is fear and lack of confidence

I would also agree with that statement, when I first bought my first kilt with all the trimmings I took a lot of stick from the teenagers in my area because I stood out like a sore thumb, I was different and I would say that 99.9% of the people that saw me had never seen a guy in a kilt in the flesh, OK they have seen them on the TV but that’s about all.
I was in a supermarket and two assistants were laughing/giggling behind my back so I went up to them and asked where the chillies were, they nearly died.
On a positive note I went into the paper shop and the assistant just said “WoW where are you taking me too”.
Going from kilt to skirt has been hard for me and I would not do it in my area, I live in a small village and every one knows each other, maybe not by name, but certainly by sight and if the kilt got so mush stick God knows how the skirt would go down, I'm also a Catholic and I think I would be asked to leave if I worn a skirt due to the fact of Deuteronomy 22 verse 5 in the Bible “man must not wear female clothes” and we know how strict the Catholic church is, (sometimes for the wrong reasons about 90% of the times), so I will carry on wearing my kilts when I'm in my area and skirts when I'm not.

[Sinned]

Hi RichardA,

As a devout Christian I wouldn't worry too much about Deutoronemy 22:5 as if you take other verses in the Bible then a lot of other things are banned.

Women may not braid their hair, wear gold, pearls, or expensive clothing.
"Women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array." -- 1 Timothy 2:9
"Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel." -- 1 Peter 3:3
Don't wear garments with wool and linen blended together.
"Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together." -- Deuteronomy 22:11
A man's hair should be short, and a woman's long.
"Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering." -- 1 Corinthians 11:14-15
Priests must wear linen, not wool, and may not wear any garment that makes them sweat.
"But the priests ... shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them. They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causeth sweat." -- Ezekiel 44:15-18

And finally God will punish those who wear strange clothes. In this context it was the waring of the clothing of foreigners by strict Jews.
".... I will punish .... all such as are clothed with strange apparel." -- Zephaniah 1:8

And these were scriptures that I researched quickly. Thus you could establish that a lot of modern fashions are against the teachings of the scriptures. I will say no more on the subject as I don't know if I have gone too for in the don't discuss politics and religion site rule. If I have then I apologise.

Sinned

[crfriend]

I will say no more on the subject as I don't know if I have gone too for in the don't discuss politics and religion site rule. If I have then I apologise.

This is precisely the sort of dialogue that we'd hope to see on the matter and did not infringe any rule or doctrine. The rules exist to keep discourse civil, and thus far it's staying that way.

[Sinned]

Thank you crfriend. We should be here to be a sort of "Mythbusters" and verify or refute arguments for or against men wearing skirts. I was just getting a bit fed up of people quoting Deut 22:5 as a reason why we shouldn't wear skirts. I hope that I've shown that the rules in the Bible were written for a certain peoples at a certain time.

Sinned

[Grok]

The scriptures were orginally written for another culture. And cultures tend to have their own dress codes.

[r.m.anderson]

Yes indeed pants had not been invented and those that wrote the scriptures were trying to
suitably dispose of the former 'Fig Leafs' in an environmental way and loin cloths seemed to
be in vogue covering more of the subject matter.
And now we are in the season where we don our "Gay Apparel" so don't get me started on
that issue !
We come into this world with nothing and leave in one form or another as dust - in the mean
time we have all the previous tenants to thank for crossing words and misinterpreting the
written word.
If ONLY Adam & Eve had not screwed up in the Garden of Eden we would not be having this
discussion/issue (or this forum).
So as Jay Leno says frequently " WHERE ARE THE PARENTS" ?

So enjoy your holiday season no matter what suits your fancy !

"Merry-Bah-Hum-Bug-Skirted-Kilted-Happy-New-Year"
rma

[crfriend]

Thank you crfriend. [...] I was just getting a bit fed up of people quoting Deut 22:5 as a reason why we shouldn't wear skirts. [...]

You are quite welcome.

The biggest problem with matters of faith is that they can by incredibly powerful -- and held fervently by those who believe -- and woe be it (frequently) to anyone who might disagree with or question even small aspects of that faith. This is the stumbling block that conversations so frequently go asunder of; and why moderators usually try to keep these conversations on a very short lead.

I was not even remotely offended by what was written; however, somebody else might have been and that's what can cause discussions to deteriorate into flame-wars.

[straightfairy]

I was just getting a bit fed up of people quoting Deut 22:5 as a reason why we shouldn't wear skirts.
Sinned

I haven't had that quoted at me yet. If I am, I hope I remember to respond. "Show me a a picture where Jesus is wearing something other than a dress like robe, or a loincloth."

[RichardA]

I was just getting a bit fed up of people quoting Deut 22:5 as a reason why we shouldn't wear skirts.
Sinned

I haven't had that quoted at me yet. If I am, I hope I remember to respond. "Show me a a picture where Jesus is wearing something other than a dress like robe, or a loincloth."

You have a good point there

[couyalair]

How many people today would know what "deuteromony " was? let alone what this or that chapter may contain?
I think most of us prefer to live in the present, and the present is freedom (compared with what our ancestors had to put up with).

Martin

[Since1982]

And when your life is nearly over and you're staring cancer or some other terrible illness in the face and wish you'd taken the bull by the horns and worn comfortable clothes because YOU wanted to, and didn't wear skirts all the time or whenever you felt like it, it becomes too late to do anything but wish you had, THEN, it's too late and you end your life unrequited. Sad.....

[skirtingtoday]

Back to the main point of this thread. Here is the biblical quote of Deuteronomy 22:5 in full.

“The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.” (King James version)

This has to be read in context of the times they lived in to get the real meaning. What was the difference between men’s and women’s clothing at that time? Well, basically there was none except in styles and details. Woman’s outerwear were more ornate and decorated, possibly also with more colour – but that was about it. (Rich women could have finer silks etc but not the ordinary people.)

Shepherds are nowadays depicted as having full-length cloaks or mantles but this is actually incorrect. The true length would have been down only to the knee to allow greater freedom of movement. They would also hitch them up further (ie “girding their loins”) to run after stray animals quicker.

So, back to the point, why would men dress as women then? There are various schools of thought I have found:-
1 Wearing habits of the opposite sex in specific ceremonies is thought to be a cure for infertility and would therefore be an indictment of paganism.
2 Wars were commonplace so men would dress in more feminine garments to avoid being “drafted” into the latest conflict.
3 It could also be an early suggestion of homosexual activity.

Any why would women dress as men?

One possible idea I found is that at that time only men were allowed into the churches to pray. Those women who dressed up as men simply wished to have the same rights as those men and pray to God as well.

On that, does anyone remember “Life of Brian” where a blasphemer was to be stoned by men but the crowd was almost entirely women dressed as men with beards? More true to life that we think?

[Milfmog]

...Or you could read the whole of Deuteronomy chapter 22, realise that verse 5 is not a good fit to those around it and conclude that it was added later and is not the word of The Lord, but of some sneaky oik who added his own rule later.

...Or you could argue that no sane person would attempt to apply all the other rules in that chapter, so why is verse 5 important?

...Or you could simply say "So what; my life, my decision".

It's your call. However, I see little or no value in arguing the meaning of a passage of text that is thousands of years old and has been translated numerous times. Chances are, much of the original meaning is now lost and it is all down to individual interpretation. On that basis, it is an emotional argument that you will never win with logic or facts; so why waste your breath?

Have fun,


Ian.

[skirtyscot]

There are loads of interpretations; Google them if you are interested.

Anyway, surely a good enough answer is that if it bars men from wearing skirts now, it must have barred women from wearing trousers until some time last century, but society's "rules" can change, and society is now accepting enough that it's OK for men to wear trousers.

I read once that in 19th century Russia, men were allowed to get drunk at parties but women were not. So the women used to have transvestite parties and get completely hammered. Maybe that was the case in Biblical times as well!

[Milfmog]

There are loads of interpretations

My point precisely. With all the different translations available there is little chance of agreeing with anyone about which one is "correct", so why bother to try?

Have fun,


Ian.