Will young men ever wear skirts?

[couyalair]

It's good that we see men in skirts from time to time on Facebook.
in the section "Women wear pants. Let Men wear skirts," there have been some pictures taken from magazines or forums, which were interesting to see. But the comments that follow, oh dear!!!
Disparaging, mocking, incredulous ... but most noticeably illiterate. The quality of language used by the mindless contributors is abysmal (unlike the contributors to the present forum, and other kilt forums I look at, where it's fairly obvious that education was not wasted). The words seem to reflect a gut reaction, resembling nausea, in these people who cannot stomach the concept of a man wearing the skirts/kilts that they think only women can wear (not that many women actually wear skirts in Europe these days).

I imagine these barely literate writers are quite young. If so, how sad it is to see the blinkered conservatism of the younger generation. In the 21st century, when legislation has been carried through allowing, for example, contraception, gay marriage, even freedom of speech, by many governments (run by old men!), all quite tabou until recently, the young are still stuck with the superstitions and prejudices of bygone eras.

I can quite readily accept that people older than myself are surprised or shocked by my choice of clothes, but I find it hard to swallow that younger people too are no less set in their ways.

Martin

[Stevie D]

It's good that we see men in skirts from time to time on Facebook.
in the section "Women wear pants. Let Men wear skirts," there have been some pictures taken from magazines or forums, which were interesting to see. But the comments that follow, oh dear!!!
Disparaging, mocking, incredulous ... but most noticeably illiterate. The quality of language used by the mindless contributors is abysmal (unlike the contributors to the present forum, and other kilt forums I look at, where it's fairly obvious that education was not wasted). .......
I imagine these barely literate writers are quite young. If so, how sad it is to see the blinkered conservatism of the younger generation. In the 21st century, when legislation has been carried through allowing, for example, contraception, gay marriage, even freedom of speech, by many governments (run by old men!), all quite tabou until recently, the young are still stuck with the superstitions and prejudices of bygone eras.

I think a lot of it is the 'herd mentality' and feelings of insecurity of being rejected by one's peers if you seem to do or support anything which goes against the herd 'norm' (what ever that may mean). The language is all part of that.

Yesterday the BBC website ran an article about African-Caribbean boys (teenagers, mostly) who deliberately perform poorly at school and in exams, simply because the perceived norm is that it is feminine or 'gay' to be academically successful.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-15387444
It's all so sad.

[jimskirts]

I read about a poll taken about 20 years ago
men would accept friends that were gay if they
were masculine in the way they appear and
act... but they would not accept friendship
with a man that appeared feminine whether
straight or gay. basically most men are intimidated
by anything outside of their norm or insecure
or both. There is still a mindset that fem=gay
for a man or at least what is not mainstream
manly. men are usually insecure in their masculenty
and that makes them intimidated. Its odd
that women don't wear skirts/dresses that much
but still men see it as an absolute fem garmet.

[crfriend]

I'd like to second the idea that Stevie broached -- that we're dealing with herd mentality in this case. This becomes very apparent in "cyberspace" where there is never the possibility of getting seriously challenged like the way things work in "meatspace" where some level of decorum is expected (and the stakes are vastly higher). Fortunately, twits are easily ignored on-line.

From a personal perspective, I usually do not bother reading incoherent writers, especially if all they're doing is essentially saying, "Me too!". I put a bit of a premium on graceful and literate use of the language, and that includes things that are seemingly becoming obsolete like capitailisation and punctuation; I find it more work than it's worth to slog through a mass of lower (or, worse, upper) case gibberish that lacks any cues as to where thoughts and ideas begin and end. In fact, the only place I will suffer such indignity is as a moderator here, and that's only in the spirit of giving each writer his due -- even if it causes me some level of consternation.

Herd mentality is troubling -- almost as troubling as "group think" -- for it very quickly sinks to the lowest common denominator, and therefore the lowest standard possible for the group. One loudmouthed boor can drown out a dozen wise individuals who have valuable and well thought-out ideas. It's dangerous, precisely for that reason. Fortunately, it's easily identifiable, usually avoidable, and if unavoidable can frequently be exploited to turn the herd on itself.

I found that story on the Beeb rather horrifying, but there is ample evidence that the same thing is happening on these shores as well. One wonders if these kids have any ideas to the sort of life they are committing themselves to with such behaviours early on.

[ChrisM]

A glimmer of hope is that my well-educated University students seem to have no problem accepting me, their Professor, in a skirt or other outlandish trappings.

I wear skirts, earrings, and "ladies" shoes (not always at the same time). It is noticeable - I have had female students laugh and remark "Hey I own those same shoes" - but (apparently) not objectionable. I have even heard stories of students in other departments contacting my students to say "Hey I saw your Prof wearing a skirt, what gives?" and their answer is along the lines "Yeah, so what? Why shouldn't he?"

Point being: At least among the educated youth, there is reason for optimism.

All the best,

Chris

[mugman]

Young persons are probably more likely still learning the ropes as far as attitudes go...not yet sure what they're supposed to support or believe in until they can start to think for themselves, and maybe become less dictated to by their peers in young adulthood.
I'm not sure how that kilted skirt for girls and boys, mentioned on another thread, would go down with a young boy, especially if he is aware that skirts are usually worn by girls at that age. Or in fact if a parent would want his or her lad to start wearing skirts anyway, if seen through the eyes of a very conformist parent. But at least it sows the seeds of the idea.
As far as grammar goes I'm appalled at some of the examples I've come across. It's almost a new language of lazy abbreviation and spelling literally how the werds sownd. Not speaking another language I don't know if this is also true for others - French, German, Italian, Chinese, whatever. Or is it just English?

[couyalair]

Funny how the herd instinct makes them want to conform in clothing, but not in language.

In Spanish, younger people like to replace interrogative "qu-" with "k-" in text messages and no-one seems to be able to choose btween "b" and "v" which have the same pronunciation, but otherwise, it seems that they keep to orthodoxy. Written and spoken Spanish do not seem to differ greatly, and the spelling closely reflects pronunciation.
In French, there is a slight tendency to write phonetically, but more out of fun than laziness, and using only a few recognized conventions. Normally wrong spelling is frowned upon or derided; replies to comments in forums will point out a mistake in grammar as often as a weakness in argument. It takes years to master the spelling of French grammar, since there are so many different ways a single sound can be written (the suffixes -é, -ée, -és, -ées, -et, -er, -ez, -ai, -eai, -ais, -ait, -aient, for example, are pronounced the same, but each has a different grammatical use).
My German is pedantic school German, and I have trouble reading today's colloquial language used in forums, although I can read a serious newspaper. Whether the language used is grammatically good or bad, I cannot say, but it is certainly different from what I learnt.
In English, it's not just a matter of spelling and grammar, but a total deconstruction. There are often no sentences. They use expletives to convey good or bad with no nuances in between, since the poverty of adjectives and adverbs allows no depth of thought.

Not that this has any bearing on skirt-wearing, but if I am still reading this forum, it is because the contributors are literate and easy to understand.

Martin

[Since1982]

To the question: Will young men ever wear skirts? They already are. Far more in Asia and Europe than the North or South America or the mostly black Islands of the same area, like Haiti or Jamaica. Out in the Pacific skirted garments for men are very much the norm and have been for hundreds of years.

[crfriend]

In English, it's not just a matter of spelling and grammar, but a total deconstruction. There are often no sentences. They use expletives to convey good or bad with no nuances in between, since the poverty of adjectives and adverbs allows no depth of thought.

That all depends on the circles that one travels in, and whom one wishes to keep as literary companions. The "total deconstruction" is a rarity in what passes for "polite society" in the USA, but carelessness and a general "dumbing down" is becoming distressingly common. For instance the increasingly common practise of forming a plural by using an apostrophe-S ('s) -- just because it's getting disgustingly common does not make it right. There is also a tendency to not use full sentences in written communications now, especially in business communication, preferring instead the "bulleted list" (gag me, please).

I vigourously disagree with the assertion that English has a "poverty of adjectives" -- rather we have a richness of them that sometimes makes it difficult for the semi-literate to know which one to pick from that wonderfully handy bag of tools, and, just like "the right tool for the job" one should be able to choose his words wisely given the task at hand. Mindlessly resorting to expletives merely shows off an ignorance of the language (written and spoken, I'll add).

That having been said, thanks for the update on some of the other languages in use. Perhaps there is hope for the future. I can understand why the French are fighting so hard to keep their language alive.

[couyalair]

I vigourously disagree with the assertion that English has a "poverty of adjectives"

... and rightly so, Carl. My phrasing above was too elliptic. I was referring to the poor language I have seen used in the internet, not to the qualities of the English language, which indeed has a vast vocabulary, much to the despair of those trying to master it!

I can understand why the French are fighting so hard to keep their language alive.

French is very much alive, thanks partly to the deep feelings of the Wallons in Belgium and the Québécois in Canada, who feel more threatened by neighbouring languages than the metropolitan* French do.

(* is that word English? "métropolitain" is the word we use to distinguish the French of France from the francophones in other parts of the world.)

Martin

[owen]

There is also a tendency to not use full sentences in written communications now, especially in business communication, preferring instead the "bulleted list" (gag me, please).

Here's a good one: http://norvig.com/Gettysburg/ .

[steve66oh]

..Wallons in Belgium and the Québécois in Canada, who feel more threatened by neighbouring languages than the metropolitan* French do.

(* is that word English? "métropolitain" is the word we use to distinguish the French of France from the francophones in other parts of the world.)

Martin

In U.S. English (I can't speak for the English of England..) "metropolis" means "big city", and "metropolitan" means "of the big city". It's a cultural reference, for example, metropolitan live theater is a sophisticated production in a lavish, technically advanced facility such as one would find in a major urban center, but "community theater", when it exists, is a low-budget, amateur effort in a makeshift or converted facility in a small town by a group of volunteers. (Which is not to say that community theater is inferior - the actors perform purely for the love of it, and often their passion adds something that rarely surfaces in a more professional performance.)

I understood your meaning though, even before I read the explanation - so I have no complaint with your usage here.

Here in the States, when we want to differentiate between something like the French spoken in France vs. that of Quebec, we would speak of "Continental French" vs. "Provincial (or "Colonial") French".

[crfriend]

Here's a good one: http://norvig.com/Gettysburg/ .

Those are classic "crib notes" and resemble the sort of thing I carry on a jot sheet when I'm doing presentations. I eschew (violently) Piddlepoint as I firmy believe that it is one of the principal drivers of the "dumbing down" of communications, and instead rely on short mnemonic bits that keep me on track. If the audience is interested, they'll pay attention.

It used to be that a good orator could go for hours "off the cuff" -- off the cuff, of course, recalls the days of disposable cuffs on which notes could be written without permanently ruining the shirt. Good speakers even today use the same tactic and the very best of them even eschew the use of the now-ubiquitous "teleprompter" which reduces the orator to someone who is merely reading aloud.

Good oratory is very much like performing without a net; there is risk in it, and that risk raises the stakes somewhat and that enhances the drama in a performance or presentation. Reading one's own Piddlepoint slides aloud just puts the audience to sleep.

[renesm1]

I would say that from keeping an eye on the twittersphere (language murdering aside!), there are a lot of men (young and old) that are wearing skirts (overwhelmingly kilts though, judging by the pictures) than you would think.

However, my own personal observations is that other than me, I don't see many men in skirts.

R

[Gregg1100]

Hi,
When I do a text, I still write the whole lot out as it should be, commas, full stops, the lot. I don't like text like; R U ok, etc.
Having a querty keyboard on my iphone 4 is handy. I wasn't keen on the earlier method like push once for on character, twice for another character, and even 3 or more times for more, ie; P,Q,R.S and W,X,Y,Z ( characters capitalized for clarity ).
Greg