On crossdressing

Discussion of fashion elements and looks that are traditionally considered somewhat "femme" but are presented in a masculine context. This is NOT about transvestism or crossdressing.
User avatar
moonshadow
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 am
Location: Appalachian Mountains (VA)
Contact:

Re: On crossdressing

Post by moonshadow »

JohnH wrote:Ever hear about the saying, "Eat sh!t - one trillion flies can't be wrong".
Flies are idiots...

We've all seen the annoying housefly buzzing around the top sash of an OPEN window....

"Just fly down you idiot! Gheesh!"

You know, come to think of it, people are a lot of like flies. Buzzing around, smacking into the glass, can't figure out why they can't be free!

All the have to do is stop, look around, observe... and FLY OUT THE OPENING! :lol: :alien:

Amazing isn't it... flies have ALL THOSE EYES..... BUT CAN'T SEE!

Humans have all those brains... BUT CAN'T THINK!

:mrgreen: I could go on all day! 8)
-Moon Shadow
"How do you propose to control me when you can't even control yourself?"

User avatar
Fred in Skirts
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 2879
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:48 pm
Location: Southeast Corner of Aiken County, SC USA

Re: On crossdressing

Post by Fred in Skirts »

moonshadow wrote:
JohnH wrote:Ever hear about the saying, "Eat sh!t - one trillion flies can't be wrong".
Flies are idiots...

We've all seen the annoying housefly buzzing around the top sash of an OPEN window....

"Just fly down you idiot! Gheesh!"

You know, come to think of it, people are a lot of like flies. Buzzing around, smacking into the glass, can't figure out why they can't be free!

All the have to do is stop, look around, observe... and FLY OUT THE OPENING! :lol: :alien:

Amazing isn't it... flies have ALL THOSE EYES..... BUT CAN'T SEE!

Humans have all those brains... BUT CAN'T THINK!

:mrgreen: I could go on all day! 8)
A lot of truth in what you say Moon, a lot of truth!!
Fred :kiltdance:

"The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle."


"It is better to be hated for what you are than be loved for what you are not" Andre Gide: 1869 - 1951

User avatar
Caultron
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 4122
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:12 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: On crossdressing

Post by Caultron »

Grok wrote:...I wonder how many members had this sort of curiosity when they were boys?
I certainly did.
Courage, conviction, nerve, verve, dash, panache, guts, nuts, balls, gall, élan, stones, whatever. Get some and get skirted.

caultron

jv88101
Member
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:02 am
Location: Texas

Re: On crossdressing

Post by jv88101 »

jjjjohanne wrote:I am a man who likes to wear "women's clothes". I like the look, the feel, the sounds, the breezes, the tight things, the loose things, etc. I present male and behave male when I do. I am the same guy I am in pants. I do try to walk, when out in a skirt, the way I walk when I am out in a suit or tuxedo, smoothly and with less cowboy jestures. I am not a female in side. I am not interested in being perceived as a woman. I am not expressing my femininity. I am just a man in clothes.

[...]

We're just us. We wear what we like.
Let's leave the macho hang-ups back in middle school where they possibly originated.

:) Skirt on, dudes!
Well said, regardless of what people may think or say, I will wear what pleases me, they are just clothes I like, and words are just words

Derek Plattis
Distinguished Member
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:43 pm
Location: U.K.

Re: On crossdressing

Post by Derek Plattis »

jv88101 wrote:
jjjjohanne wrote:I am a man who likes to wear "women's clothes". I like the look, the feel, the sounds, the breezes, the tight things, the loose things, etc. I present male and behave male when I do. I am the same guy I am in pants. I do try to walk, when out in a skirt, the way I walk when I am out in a suit or tuxedo, smoothly and with less cowboy jestures. I am not a female in side. I am not interested in being perceived as a woman. I am not expressing my femininity. I am just a man in clothes.

[...]

We're just us. We wear what we like.
Let's leave the macho hang-ups back in middle school where they possibly originated.

:) Skirt on, dudes!
Well said, regardless of what people may think or say, I will wear what pleases me, they are just clothes I like, and words are just words
I'll drink to that

Derek

weeladdie18
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1474
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:17 pm

Re: On crossdressing

Post by weeladdie18 »

Please allow me to clarify the definition of cross dressing for the male who wishes to join the world of the Transvestite.
The definition of a T. V. is a male who wishes to appear as a female....This is quite clear. Either one wishes to appear with a female
shaped body and female facial outline and hairstyle or one wishes to appear as the gender with which one was born.

Please note that I have made no mention of the style of clothes which one wishes to wear. I hope this definition has clarified this matter.
.......weeladdie.......

User avatar
Sinned
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 4165
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:28 pm
Location: York, England

Re: On crossdressing

Post by Sinned »

I strongly beg to differ weeladdie as the definitions of cross dressing that I've seen make no mention of trying to appear as a woman. They just say wearing clothes of the opposite sex.

Wikipedia says: "Cross-dressing is the act of wearing items of clothing and other accoutrements commonly associated with the opposite sex within a particular society. Cross-dressing has been used for purposes of disguise, comfort, and self-discovery in modern times and throughout history."

No mention there of trying to appear as a woman just the same reasons that most of us wear what we wear. I accept that I am a cross dresser because I wear garments marketed to women. But then most women are cross dressers so I am actually in with the majority.

As for transvestite, that goes a little further, but not much. "A person, typically a man, who derives pleasure from dressing in clothes primarily associated with the opposite sex." Again no mention of trying to appear as a member of the opposite sex.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.

User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 11393
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: On crossdressing

Post by crfriend »

Sinned wrote:I strongly beg to differ weeladdie as the definitions of cross dressing that I've seen make no mention of trying to appear as a woman. They just say wearing clothes of the opposite sex.
This is true to the point of the way the definitions are written, but the way they are interpreted in practise is different. In "Orthodox Crossdressing" a very high value is had in being able to "pass" -- and that means masquerading successfully as a woman. So, this is a rather distinct condition compared to us lot who don't even try to "pass" and embrace skirts as guys. Also of note is that "transvestite" is a tarted-up pseudo-scholarly word meaning precisely crossdresser; it's merely "crossdresser" transliterated into Latin. Somebody wanted a fancy-sounding term for a paper he was writing.

The most peculiar thing about both terms, though, is that neither of them is ever applied to women, and this is where much friction can happen. More sadly, it remains a clinical diagnosis -- for men only -- in the DSM in use by the psychiatric profession.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!

weeladdie18
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1474
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:17 pm

Re: On crossdressing

Post by weeladdie18 »

I would thank Sinned for chosing to debate my post regarding "on crossdressing " . I would strongly advise him to study the statements made
by the Beaumont Society which is a British National Society which represents the T.V. Movement in the U.K. .....as far as I can remember the old
party line was that the membership wished to appear as Females . ....However this did not prevent the members from appearing as
Females who wore female trousers....... I would further remind Sinned that he has made no reference to his source of information regarding
statements which differ from my post.
I would be delighted to withdraw my post if he has sufficient information from the Beaumont Society to satisfy me that
statements I have made are incorrect...................................
Many years ago I attended several local meetings of the local Branch of the Beaumont Society purely out of curiousity and I can assure
the Skirt Café that the Aims and objectives of the T.V.s in the B.S. are not quite my cup of tea.........
I feel that any misunderstanding regarding the aims and objectives of the T.V. movement should be clarified for the"Men in Skirts " in the Skirt Cafe
...........weeladdie

User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 11393
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: On crossdressing

Post by crfriend »

weeladdie18 wrote:I would strongly advise him to study the statements made by the Beaumont Society which is a British National Society which represents the T.V. Movement in the U.K.
I'd hardly call the Beaumont Society an unbiased source...
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!

weeladdie18
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1474
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:17 pm

Re: On crossdressing

Post by weeladdie18 »

crfriend wrote:
Sinned wrote:I strongly beg to differ weeladdie as the definitions of cross dressing that I've seen make no mention of trying to appear as a woman. They just say wearing clothes of the opposite sex.
This is true to the point of the way the definitions are written, but the way they are interpreted in practise is different. In "Orthodox Crossdressing" a very high value is had in being able to "pass" -- and that means masquerading successfully as a woman. So, this is a rather distinct condition compared to us lot who don't even try to "pass" and embrace skirts as guys. Also of note is that "transvestite" is a tarted-up pseudo-scholarly word meaning precisely crossdresser; it's merely "crossdresser" transliterated into Latin. Somebody wanted a fancy-sounding term for a paper he was writing.

The most peculiar thing about both terms, though, is that neither of them is ever applied to women, and this is where much friction can happen. More sadly, it remains a clinical diagnosis -- for men only -- in the DSM in use by the psychiatric profession.
I would agree with the terminology used by Crfriend....."passing " or " Pass " and "coming out " is used by the T. V. community.
I was concerned regarding my interest in wearing female skirts....The local G.P. refered me to the local Geno Unary Clinic ( G.U.M. )
for councelling. This does for some patients lead to prescription of steroids and further councelling before sex changing surgery takes place.
I will not discuss this psychological outlook further as it is not within the remit or rules of the Skirt Café.

I am however interested in Moon's... "Scientific Survey " ....as we do get to a point where we wonder which road we are travelling down.

One of the problems is that we as individual skirt wearers have no formal guidelines and are in a small minority so our Interest in skirt wearing
has very little definitive background and no formal acceptance in Society.

In Warmer Climates many male communities have a popular male skirt like garment . However in Scotland and other more temperate climates
Kilt and male skirt wearers are in a very small minority....I have worn the Kilt in Scotland and in Cornwall and had very few Kilt Sightings
" in the wild " weeladdie

User avatar
Sinned
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 4165
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:28 pm
Location: York, England

Re: On crossdressing

Post by Sinned »

Right, weeladdie. You want references.

Collins dictionary English: "If someone cross-dresses, they wear the clothes of the opposite sex, especially for sexual pleasure." Or "to wear clothes normally associated with the opposite sex." [0]

[0] No mention of trying to look like a woman. For sexual pleasure would include fetishes I presume.

Cambridge dictionary English: "the act of wearing clothes usually worn by the opposite sex"

Dictionary.com: "to dress in clothing typically worn by members of the opposite sex."

Do I need to go on? Netdoctor.com, thefreedictionary.com, Mcmillan dictionary etc. In not one of the definitions is there any mention of trying to look like a woman. Sorry, weeladdie, but I rest my case.

Lifted directly from The Beaumont Society's web page, "The Beaumont Society is a national self help body run by and for the transgender community." Transgender is a whole new ballpark from cross dressing. I'm a cross dresser, although not for sexual pleasure, but I'm not transgender, and never will be.

There have been whole threads discussing cross dressing and transvestism. Please search for and read them.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.

User avatar
oldsalt1
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 2385
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:25 pm
Location: Long Island, New York

Re: On crossdressing

Post by oldsalt1 »

Things are just as muddy on this side of the pond. It seems that here a male crossdresser wants to look and be perceived as a women completely makeup hair etc. while a transvestite just likes to wear the clothing.

User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 11393
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: On crossdressing

Post by crfriend »

oldsalt1 wrote:Things are just as muddy on this side of the pond.
Actually, it's not muddy in the slightest. Here's what's going on:
  • [1] We have the dictionary definitions which are available in print for all to read equally. This makes for a great levelling factor.
    [2] We have the words as they're used in common use, including slang usage, and by various "interested parties" who will actively try to manipulate the language to achieve their goals.
The two are incompatible. Full stop.

Given the above incompatibility, it then falls onto the person contemplating the term -- whether in the first person or third person -- what the speaker's (or writer's) intent was, and what that person's leanings are. The term can either be one of factual matter or an outright slur. Since the pejorative uses of "crossdressing" and "transvestism" (identical terms, mind) are more common, it's likely safe to assume a comment was not meant in the dictionary manner. Note that both are also diagnosable as "disorders" in the psychiatric profession -- FOR MEN ONLY -- so there's another issue to be aware of.

For the above reasons, I eschew the use of the term and advocate that others eschew it as well. The more we use it to describe ourselves, the more we encourage others to use the term against us. In short, don't do it -- unless you're trying to masquerade as a woman, that is.

Language and words have power; don't offer ammunition to a potentially hostile party by using the language the way he wishes it be used.

I find it vehemently offensive that I can be clinically categorised as having a disorder simply because as a male I happen to shop the distaff aisle in the clothing department. It can't happen with women, why should it happen to men? The flat answer is that it shouldn't. This is the sort of differentiation I'm referring to -- and it's discriminatory, arbitrary, and pernicious. It needs to be stamped out, and we're the ones to do it.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!

weeladdie18
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1474
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:17 pm

Re: On crossdressing

Post by weeladdie18 »

I would agree with Old Salt that the world of the T.V. and the Cross Dresser is very muddy.....I am returning to the safety of the Skirt Café
and will be taking another Lattee beneath the palm trees whilst wearing my favourite summer skirt......weeladdie

Post Reply