skirtcafe.org

Last night I just watched "Troy" and "300" (Blockbuster in-home double-feature!). I thought both were absolutely EXCELLENT films! Plenty of blood, wonderful muscular bodies all over the place, great sex scenes that still got past the censors, just enough history to make you think you've learned something without really having to get any facts right -- everything you want in a no-brainer summer flick.

But what I really noticed about both films (especially Troy) was the great diversity of unbifurcated garments the main characters all wore. Really manly stuff worn by serious warriors like Achilles, Odysseus and the entire Spartan army led by King Leonidas.

Needless to say, my little heart went pitter-pat.

Of course, it did not escape my notice that in these films they went out of their way to emphasize (historically incorrectly, actually) that all these men were REALLY SERIOUSLY heterosexual, and naturally among the disparagements thrown against the enemy were the accusations that they were "boy-lovers" and/or makeup-wearers. So. Not as much of a stride as I'd like, but....

Anyway, it made me start to wonder about "masculine" skirts. I mean, my position about fashion freedom is pretty well known here, but I don't think it's out of line to admit that a continuum can and perhaps should exist as to the masculinity and/or femininity of skirts. Some people at some times enjoy emphasizing their masculine side more than others. And vice versa. And why not?

So I'd like to open the question -- what makes a skirt "masculine"?

And DON'T CHEAT by saying "the guy who's inside it". We're talking about as it HANGS ON THE RACK.

I do have several ideas of my own I'd like to post, but I don't want to sway the polling audience ahead of time, so I throw the question open first to you gentlemen and your own experiences. What makes you choose one skirt (or kilt) over another on days when perhaps you want to feel just a bit more masculine and tough, compared to days when you want to feel a bit more relaxed and softer? Or perhaps you might take the question into full fantasy realm based on ideas you might pluck from these movies or other media. I'm just interested in your take on things.

I'll just throw a few thoughts on the table!

Don't anyone even think of leaping up and telling me I'm 'wrong', 'cos they aren't all my notions (even if I might agree with them!).

A Masculine Skirt could well have some (most?) of the following features:

Fly (left over right for preference).
Pockets (optional - but 'sensible' size!).
Belt loops (big enough to take a 'real' belt).
No vents (except, maybe, at the rear).
No embroidery.
Even hem length.
Not calf length (except something like a sarong?).

A Kilt 'safely' picks up 5 of those (a Breachan 6!) and, of course the apron wraps left over right (otherwise it would be a kilted-skirt! )!

So I'd like to open the question -- what makes a skirt "masculine"?

A bifurcation.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

<slaps knee> It's the way I tell them!

All right, Ill get my coat . . . . .
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Being serious for a minute I would suggest that in the type of films you wear watching, leather clothing is used to emphasize masculinity - even in skirts.

In my opinion there is no absolute condition called "masculine", rather it is - as you have said - a continuum, with hyper-masculine at one end and hyper girly-feminine at the other. What I would call 'masculine' would lie along the axis somewhere between the mid point and the hyper-masculine.

Anyhow, some clichéd styes of skirt that are supposed to emphasize masculinity are:

* Use of heavy material, such as leather, denim, heavy cotton, heavy wool etc.
* Use of drab colours, e.g. black, dark blue, brown etc.
* Length of skirt to be kept as near to the knee as possible.
* Material of skirt should be plain - with no pattern - although a check or plaid is allowed.
* No frills. Real men are not allowed to flounce.
* Skirts only to be worn with bare legs - preferably hairy - socks are allowed.
* 'Masculine' accessories to be used when possible - e.g. leather or studded belts; sturdy boots, thick socks etc.

Do not want to confine myself in what masculine is or not that is so limited as a notion.Egyptians wore skirts,sandals,wigs,make-up-everything is so-o-o-o subjective Since women are not expected to be traditionally feminine it is not necessary for men to be masculine according to nowadays stanards.Just an opininion though,let everybody wear whatever he/she pleases is the best option whether the items are so called masculine or feminine!

An interesting exercise, but in my opinion, I think it's also a futile one. No matter how much a skirt can be made to look "masculine" (denim, pockets, drab colors, pockets, etc), there's just no getting around the all too obvious fact that a skirt is still very much seen and perceived as a strictly feminine article of clothing to the world at large. What's more, having hairy legs or being loaded down with "masculine accessories" won't alter one iota the fact that you're still seen as wearing a feminine article of clothing, plain and simple. There's just no changing that particular mindset, no matter how hard you try. I'm with SkirtedViking, why waste time worrying about labels like "masculine" or "feminine" when it comes to clothing? Just wear what you want and enjoy wearing it, gender based labels should be of no consequence when it comes to personal choice, and personal freedom.

JeffB1959 wrote:An interesting exercise, but in my opinion, I think it's also a futile one. No matter how much a skirt can be made to look "masculine" (denim, pockets, drab colors, pockets, etc), there's just no getting around the all too obvious fact that a skirt is still very much seen and perceived as a strictly feminine article of clothing to the world at large.

I'll second the notion of futility, at least in the context of current western culture; the hill is so steep that no matter what we do it's virtually impossible to get a foothold. Further compounding the issue is that all the styles mentioned above are merely unbifurcated versions of the same drabness that many of us here seem to abhor -- why apply the same "rules" about masculinity if it just leads right back into the box?

I think the meta-question here is, "What is masculinity?" That's also the proverbial "elephant in the parlor" that nobody talks about. Once we have a good (and by "good" I mean, "reliable") definition of "masculinity", then we can apply that to what a "masculine skirt" is or looks like.

crfriend wrote:

JeffB1959 wrote:... a skirt is still very much seen and perceived as a strictly feminine article of clothing to the world at large.

... I think the meta-question here is, "What is masculinity?" That's also the proverbial "elephant in the parlor" that nobody talks about. Once we have a good (and by "good" I mean, "reliable") definition of "masculinity", then we can apply that to what a "masculine skirt" is or looks like.

I think it's more complicated. The fact that an individual element, say, an article of clothing, or a role, may be seen in isolation as "masculine" or "feminine" doesn't mean that it will be seen that way when a real human being is involved. For instance, most people of my generation grew up thinking of changing a baby's diaper as "feminine", but then I think of my father, who I don't think anyone would have ever thought of as being "feminine," who had no problem with changing his kids' diapers when necessary. It was just something that needed doing, and his idea of masculinity was that if there's a job that needs doing, then, by golly, a Real Man gets down and does it. And I don't think that it seemed in the least bit "feminine" when he did it. I think a lot of people in those days would do a double-take when they saw him doing it, but it was kind of a consciousness-raising double-take: a guy can change a diaper and remain a guy.

The same thing happens when guys wear skirts to Contra dances. Even though most outsiders would see skirts in isolation as "feminine," I think few people, when they see guys with bushy beards and uncombed hair and T-shirts wearing flowery or lacy skirts while vigorously stamping and swinging gals around and dos-a-do-ing, would see them as feminine. Odd, perhaps (in a Monty-Python-ish way), but not feminine. (Their rather masculine lack of fashion sense helps, too )

Come to think of it, the main reason that kilts don't seem "feminine" is that the guys who wear them tend to look and act pretty "masculine". Take a trim guy in a kilt, have him shave his legs and beard, add sheer hose and heels and a delicate blouse, and maybe some makeup, and he's going to start looking like a cross-dresser.

When it comes to what skirts can be seen as "masculine", I think you have to consider the whole picture, especially including the guy who's wearing them. For instance, I have a long Lane Bryant denim skirt that looks feminine on the woman who's wearing it in the picture in the catalog, but on me, I think it makes me look like somebody from the middle ages (or a priest or something.) However, there are guys I know who could be mistaken for women even in trousers; they would have to work harder to look unambiguously male in a skirt.

-- AMM

AMM wrote:The same thing happens when guys wear skirts to Contra dances. Even though most outsiders would see skirts in isolation as "feminine," I think few people, when they see guys with bushy beards and uncombed hair and T-shirts wearing flowery or lacy skirts while vigorously stamping and swinging gals around and dos-a-do-ing, would see them as feminine. Odd, perhaps (in a Monty-Python-ish way), but not feminine. (Their rather masculine lack of fashion sense helps, too )

Feel free to jump down my throat for saying this, but I'm of the opinion, misguided though it may be since I'm still new here that guys who sport bushy beards, hairy legs and whatnot while wearing skirts are, in a way, overcompensating for the fact that they're wearing a skirt, so they go the furry route in order to visually reinforce to the world that they're still very much men and are still "masculine" while garbed in an article of clothing that society has labeled in its collective narrowminded view as "feminine". Perhaps that's a subconscious response, perhaps it's conscious repsonse, I can't say because I don't really know anyone here and how they think, but that's my opinion. If I'm wrong as hell, by all means, straighten me out. In my mind, "masculinity" is a mindset, not something you can put on your back, if you're secure in your identity, you can still be very masculine regardless of what you wear. Don't let others determine your identity.

JeffB1959 wrote: In my mind, "masculinity" is a mindset, not something you can put on your back, if you're secure in your identity, you can still be very masculine regardless of what you wear.

That's a good way of looking at it -- like the "it's what's between the ears" comments -- and probably a fairly healthy way of looking at the matter, too.

I have no problems being myself (just an average bloke) no matter what I'm wearing, and I behave accordingly. I'll admit to being a bit miffed at the "go furry" comment as I have a large bushy and Osama bin Laden-esque beard (although the grey is gone from his) but I don't keep it because I need to look masculine; I have it because (1) I dislike shaving my face, (2) I kind of like the way it looks (although Diana says I need to get it trimmed), and (3) I can be really lazy about the matter (weight according to your own impressions).

crfriend wrote:I'll admit to being a bit miffed at the "go furry" comment as I have a large bushy and Osama bin Laden-esque beard (although the grey is gone from his) but I don't keep it because I need to look masculine; I have it because (1) I dislike shaving my face, (2) I kind of like the way it looks (although Diana says I need to get it trimmed), and (3) I can be really lazy about the matter (weight according to your own impressions).

I apologize if what I said left you miffed. After twenty years in the military (Navy), I'm used to being clean shaven and look, well, scruffy with a beard, so I shave twice a week, and always on Monday morning before starting a new work week. But I understand if that's not everyone's bag, it's simply what works for me, and is what I happen to like.

JeffB1959 wrote:I apologize if what I said left you miffed. After twenty years in the military (Navy), I'm used to being clean shaven and look, well, scruffy with a beard [...]

I just realised that I never finished my thought there, and leaving it that way caused a misunderstanding.

If anybody got the impression that I was upset about things you're incorrect. My thought was that usually beards are there for reasons other than trying to "overcompensate" for wearing a skirt; sprouting growth where you'd otherwise not just because you want to wear a skirt is a bit silly.

Going back to the question of what makes a skirt "masculine" (or "feminine" is, I think largely a question of whether the wearer is perceived as "masculine" or "feminine", how the wearer wears the garment and what the wearer wears with the germent.

In some earlier post, somewhere, Carl mentioned that he wore a full burgundy silk skirt with a yellow men's dress shirt, a red men's vest and cream tights. He looked absolutely masculine in that outfit.

But HEY! THAT'S *MY* SKIRT!!!!!!! I don't look at all masculine when I wear it, even if I'm wearing it with a simple gold lurrex sweater.

I doubt that anything could be done to "masculinize" thoses frothy confections of lace and tulle that little gils wear. However, I think that just about any traditional style of skirt can look good on a man.

I've mentioned before thtT Carl wears my black and pink, lace trimmed mini kilt and looks like a hot GUY when he does.

Diana

JeffB1959 wrote:... guys who sport bushy beards, hairy legs and whatnot while wearing skirts ...

I should confess that my comment about "guys with bushy beards and uncombed hair and T-shirts wearing .. skirts" Contra-dancing was a bit of a stereotype. The majority of guys at Contra dances are clean-shaven (though a smaller percentage than in the public at large), whether skirted or not. Actually, skirting at dances seems to be more common among younger men (in their teens or early 20's) who mostly don't have beards.

-- AMM

AMM wrote:Actually, skirting at dances seems to be more common among younger men (in their teens or early 20's) who mostly don't have beards.

OK, now that's an interesting observation. For one, we've got "the kiddies" (no disrespect meant for the under-30 crowd) in skirts when normally middle-aged wisdom would think that they'd be prone to knuckling under from harassment, and they're actively innovating! In a way, this restores my faith in youth, and is very good news indeed.

Thanks for that datum, AMM!

With the new style of the site, I don't know how to do quotes properly as I never did them at IMFF and it was different when it was the old style site. I've collected a comment from an earlier poster that I'd like to separate into 2 sections.

Quote: Anyhow, some clichéd styes of skirt that are supposed to emphasize masculinity are:

* Use of heavy material, such as leather, denim, heavy cotton, heavy wool etc.
* Use of drab colours, e.g. black, dark blue, brown etc.
* Length of skirt to be kept as near to the knee as possible.
* Material of skirt should be plain - with no pattern - although a check or plaid is allowed.
* No frills. Real men are not allowed to flounce.
* Skirts only to be worn with bare legs - preferably hairy - socks are allowed.
* 'Masculine' accessories to be used when possible - e.g. leather or studded belts; sturdy boots, thick socks etc. Unquote.

Use of heavy material, such as leather, denim, heavy cotton, heavy wool etc.
* Use of drab colours, e.g. black, dark blue, brown etc.
* Length of skirt to be kept as near to the knee as possible.
* Material of skirt should be plain - with no pattern - although a check or plaid is allowed.
Well, as I'm not going to a funeral I don't need drab, dark, bland, heavy material to make my skirts of and...


* Skirts only to be worn with bare legs - preferably hairy - socks are allowed.
* 'Masculine' accessories to be used when possible - e.g. leather or studded belts; sturdy boots, thick socks etc.

I'm also not going to war skirted this week so I don't HAVE to look as if I am. I'd certainly never have called a King of Hawaii feminine because he wore a colorfully patterned sarong or anyone that liked colorful skirts or non-drab clothing of any kind to be feminine because they didn't want to look like a barbarian or viking in the midst of a raid on england or a Capital One credit card commercial.

A person's masculinity/femininity is shown by his/her demeanor, not by what cloth he/she decides to cover his/her body with.