One small step

[Topsy]

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I spoke to the union last week about the possibility of the management not getting a reply within the advised period. Our policy is to issue a reminder and to set a 2nd deadline. If no reply is forthcoming then we lodge a grievance with senior managers. This can be escalated and will become the property of the national union committee rather than the local team.

This way, it will not get swept under a carpet or left to die.

Ultimately, if a negative reply arrives, the same procedure must be used before the case can be taken to an employment tribunal under the Equals Opportunities Commission law www.eoc.org.uk

But all that depends as I said on a sensible reply not being received. The management are well aware of the legal route and will not wish to go down this road if a sensible position can be reached.

Otherwise, since they have not replied in the due period I could go into work in a skirt - but I am only there for 1 day this coming week so would likely reserve my protest for the following week.

[crfriend]

Topsy -- Thanks for the update. I suspect I'm not alone, but I'm watching this with some interest. It'll not amount to anything where I live, but it's very interesting nonetheless. I wish something like your EOC existed in the US that was gender-blind.

Your notion of saving the "protest" for next week is probably a wise one. I'll echo some of the other advice, though, about having a pair of tr*users on hand in case there are problems. It can't hurt, and it'll save you a commute back home to fetch your "standard male" attire.

[Topsy]

I may have said it elsewhere but when I was despatched home on that fateful Tuesday I did have a pair of white chinos in my locker but I chose not to inform the managers who were there (my immediate manager knew but was not on-site). That gave me the breathing space I needed (plus valuable shopping time when I bought two new summer ankle length skirts, one in white cotton, the other in a poly/cotton mix with a chocolate/black print pattern). The other reason for not admitting to the change of attire that day was so that I could use the confrontation to its best effect and did not give in there and then. It is all psycological.

Did I mention to anyone here that I studied sociology in my formative years and that dealing with the public face to face for 18 years and having to make decisions on their truthfullness (or otherwise) gives me a strong ability to read how others will react or how they are thinking from only spending a few seconds with them. Maybe I should go get myself a psyco major ?:drool:

Anyone work out the answer from the clue in the subject line?

[crfriend]

Anyone work out the answer from the clue in the subject line?

I believe the rest of the quote is "I am a free man!" (or something to that effect). It's also been fairly brutally parodied, as well.

Cheers!

[Topsy]

Correct

I am not a number, I am a free man.

Perhaps this is a sentiment that can be carried over to the MUG promotional environments?

[Topsy]

Hum ha


I got my reply today

Short answer NO

I will post a full response in a day or two

[binx]

Perhaps some lightweight kilts changed out of before and into after at work, then "linger about" before heading home will sway them. Better established as a male garment IMO. I've worn a skirt on the weekend with no repercussions, but I'm not going to push beyond kilts during the week.

binx

[crfriend]

I got my reply today

Short answer NO

This was to be fully expected, and I hope you're not surprised by it. The key now will be how well your union and the EOC support your position.

Short-sighted, head-in-the-sand, is the typical mentality of Management these days; they care not one whit about how the business operates, nor how their employees feel in their positions -- it's about one thing only: how Management can fatten their pockets -- and not one whit less. I'm personally really saddened by the lack of vision your Management has shown; I would have expected better from a European country.

The key now, as I see it, is how well your union will support you and your vision. I fervently hope they rise to the occasion, else they're little better than what passes for labour unions in the US. Time will tell.

I will post a full response in a day or two

Please do.

[matman]

Being a business owner and former manager I'd hope to assure everyone that there is no need to cast the same judgement on all businesses and all management. At least not in the areas where I have experience. I don't doubt that CRF's statements reflect his own experiences, but take heart. Mine have been different, though certainly not uniformly so. Perhaps that's the key, no one group has a monopoly on treating others fairly or poorly. So, keep trying. And keep in mind, perhaps just as an example, the present success of a certain movement started about 2000 years ago by twelve guys who liked to drink together regularly! Would if they'd been Irish!

[Departed Member]

I got my reply today Short answer NO

I'd have been amazed if the answer had been anything else! You can just see their brains churning, "Well, I don't want to wear a skirt/Kilt, why would anyone else?" They're hoping upon hope that you'll just go, "Oh! OK, then!" and fade away. I doubt they think for a moment that you'll fight their knee-jerk decision. Out of interest, did they attempt to give a reasoned explanation for a blanket NO?

[Since1982]

Coupla questions... Can they fire you for wearing a skirt to work? If not, can they block you from entering the building for wearing a skirt? Can/will management hire thugs to beat you up if you disregard their decision? If your union is behind your rights, then I can't see how management can actually stop you except perhaps physically. You can hope they do that, as it will set them up for a massive lawsuit. I think you have grounds for a lawsuit already actually. Are there any civil rights groups in England like the ACLU in America? If this was in America the American Civil Liberties Union would be all over that company like white on rice.

[Topsy]

To put it mildly, I was not happy yesterday.

Under the circumstances I did not post a full response to the reply I had received. Today I hae the opportunity to put the current position n writing.

In short, I received a negative answer (below) from my manager's manager. From the writing style, he did not write it and I have my suspicions as to who did write it.

Nevertheless, the reply is quite explicit and restrictive. The issue is not dead and I will explain the next move after the letter:
[INDENT]

Appropriate Standards of Dress

You met with (your manager) and (HR advisor) on the 14th of June to discuss your preference for wearing a skirt into work. (Your Manager) has referred the matter to me (as his line manager) and I am keen to get a decision to you as soon as possible. I will be happy to meet with you to discuss my decision with you if you require. As I have a series of diary commitments over the next few days, I thought it would be better to communicate my decision in writing to avoid unnecessary delays.

I have considered everything that was discussed in your meeting with (Manager), based upon the note prepared by (Advisor). I understand a copy of this note has already been e-mailed to you. In reaching a decision, I am mindful of the advice of the Equality and Diversity Unit. They have confirmed that while the (Employer) has clear responsibilities to employees who can be defined as transsexual to transgender, the reasons you have given for wishing to wear a skirt into work indicate that you do not fall into these categories and instead reflect a lifestyle choice.

I would like to thank you at the outset for your open-ness and straight-forward approach during your meeting with (Manager). This is clearly an important issue to you and having a clear background to your request (and your decision to wear a skirt into work last week) can only be of assistance to all parties.

Although you raised the issue of wearing an Irish kilt into work, you made it clear during your meeting with (Manager) that this was not your reason for wishing to wear a skirt into work and that the prime reason for doing so was comfort. On the medical issue you raised, (the Health Advisors) have stated that there is absolutely no medical evidence to support your assertion that there are health risks directly associated with wearing trousers.

I am not aware of a formal dress code that applies across the (Employer). However, within (our area) I believe it is reasonable that we enforce standards of dress that meet normally accepted levels. While there may always be an element of subjectivity over exactly what constitutes an acceptable standard of dress, in my view a male officer wearing clothing normally associated exclusively with females does not meet that acceptable standard.

It is my view that it is reasonable that the requirement to wear clothes that meet acceptable standards should apply whether or not the individual is on an operational or non-operational shift.

Because of this, I regret to advise that I will not permit you to wear skirts, or other visible clothing that might reasonably be deemed to be exclusively for females, into work.

I know this is not the answer you were hoping for. You may wish to discuss this decision with your Union representative.

Finally, and in order that there can be no misunderstanding, I must advise you that if you attend work wearing clothes that do not meet normally acceptable standards, you will be asked to change. In addition, consideration may be given to formal disciplinary action in these circumstances. Naturally, I hope this does not become necessary.

[/INDENT]The last few paragraphs are very clear but are written in a very bullish manner, perhaps to scare me into compliance with the 'norm'.

To answer Skip's question, no there will not be anyone with batons to ensure I keep to the 'rules'.

My union have already taken this onwards and have mailed the manager of the named letter writer as I suggested last week.

In the meantime I need your help. I need any medical correspondence that explicitly suggests that tr*sers can promote problems, or that MUGs can reduce them. Any other legal documents or evidence will also help.

Please mail me @ [email]"topsy@tesco.net"[/email]

Many thanks for everyone's continued support. The battle may be lost but the war continues.

[binx]

"Because of this, I regret to advise that I will not permit you to wear skirts, or other visible clothing that might reasonably be deemed to be exclusively for females, into work." So if you wear a men's skirt or kilt, that should be OK, as you can prove they're male garments?

binx

[Since1982]

I'm sure DanR would be only too happy to send your Manager a link to his website CitySkirt that manufactures skirts exclusively for men only, proving that all skirts are not exclusively female wear. along with all these other sites for skirts and/or kilts for men only.

Amerikilt
Bear Kilts
CitySkirt
Great Scot
King Kilts
KomfiKilts
LungiMan Surf Designs
Macabi Skirt
Utilikilts
Midas Clothing
NeoKilt
Persus
"R" Kilts
Running Kilts
SavannahKilts
Scottish American Outfitter
Sports Kilt

:stir:

[Departed Member]

"Because of this, I regret to advise that I will not permit you to wear skirts, or other visible clothing that might reasonably be deemed to be exclusively for females, into work." So if you wear a men's skirt or kilt, that should be OK, as you can prove they're male garments?

binx

I agree. Kilts are essentially menswear - with a proven 'track record' of 200 years plus. Women who wear men's Kilts to perform in bands do so on the sole pretext that 'it is an accepted part of the uniform'. In other words, they are accepted and acknowledged as 'menswear' (worn) by women.

Equally a(ny) garment which fastens 'left over right' is (and can only be) 'menswear' (regardless of which department it may have been purchased from), as the equivalent article for women is exclusively 'right over left'.

Either of such garments cannot, by reason of their inferred (& demonstrable) 'masculinity' (i.e., having apparently been designed/intended to be worn by a person of the male gender), be regarded as "skirts, or other visible clothing that might reasonably be deemed to be exclusively for females". :shake:

Best of luck with your fight. Where the h*ll does their (written) statement now stand with regards to those women who may choose to wear a(ny) garment fastening 'left over right'? I think they may well have invertantly 'dropped themselves in it' regarding 'women's rights'. Get their (women's) Reps involved, if you can. This is now blatent sexism, either way! :shoot: