Skirt Cafe is an on-line community dedicated to exploring, promoting and advocating skirts and kilts as a fashion choice for men, formerly known as men in skirts. We do this in the context of men's fashion freedom --- an expansion of choices beyond those commonly available for men to include kilts, skirts and other garments. We recognize a diversity of styles our members feel comfortable wearing, and do not exclude any potential choices. Continuing dialog on gender is encouraged in the context of fashion freedom for men. See here for more details.
Discussion of fashion elements and looks that are traditionally considered somewhat "femme" but are presented in a masculine context. This is NOT about transvestism or crossdressing.
Barleymower wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 6:14 pmThey are merely using throw away phrases that actually have no basis in truth.
That's just marketing. What do you expect a retailer to do? Sometimes "playing it bland" is the safe bet, and they're looking out for their profits and don't want to potentially endanger those.
Noone is going to challenge them becuase nobody cares enough to make the effort.
I'm not sure that it's a matter of nobody caring, but more likely a case of, "I have better things to look out for at the moment" like, "Where is my next meal coming from?" or "Will I have a roof over my head tomorrow?" I'm sure quite a few people care, but there are other priorities that sometimes need addressing first.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
Barleymower wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 6:14 pmThey are merely using throw away phrases that actually have no basis in truth.
That's just marketing. What do you expect a retailer to do? Sometimes "playing it bland" is the safe bet, and they're looking out for their profits and don't want to potentially endanger those.
Noone is going to challenge them becuase nobody cares enough to make the effort.
I'm not sure that it's a matter of nobody caring, but more likely a case of, "I have better things to look out for at the moment" like, "Where is my next meal coming from?" or "Will I have a roof over my head tomorrow?" I'm sure quite a few people care, but there are other priorities that sometimes need addressing first.
All businesses need to take risks. Having a few men lounging around in tights won't bugger up the business model.
If you are worrying about your essentials you won't be shopping for special tights. Or at least you shouldn't.
Is the skirtcafe about promoting MIS or is it about being defeated by overwhelming opposition?
Barleymower wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 6:08 pm
Well I had hoped that there would be some constructive discussion about getting some exposure for MIS. Instead I got a massive dose of reality. If Snag log on and check out the discussion they will surely nod and log off again.
Well, they can prove me, us, naysayers wrong! They are adults, have looked at their internals, and know whether or not your suggestion is a good one for their product. I just don't see any corporate entity - no matter how progressive - risking the bottom line on a market that probably buys their product and wears it mostly in secret (I no longer do).
Barleymower wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 7:00 pm
All businesses need to take risks. Having a few men lounging around in tights won't bugger up the business model.
If you are worrying about your essentials you won't be shopping for special tights. Or at least you shouldn't.
I don't think it would ruin their model - they are a pretty progressive company. However, it could bring them undue attention from "the right". And honestly, I only write that because that is the side that would be the one to complain, if anyone.
IMHO: yes, I would love to see more companies that posture themselves as progressive to show men in *realistic* ways wearing their product. However, what you typically get is "man-light" or "masculine-presenting" or what the right like to call "soy boys". You don't get Brad Pitt in SNAGs. Is this a problem? I'll let the reader decide. I know some of this language is inflammatory - and doesn't really reflect how I see the world. But I suspect there are bigger currents of societal expectations that the preceding themes do capture whether we like it or not.
Coder I don't think they will bother. We are asking them to believe it could work and all we can do is bring ourselves down.
Bringing undue attention from the right (feared) sounds like deep down we believe the 'right' has right on heir side.The sexes are much closer than we are prepared to admit. The louder we shout about differences the more reduculous we sound. I'm astounded that we manage to get it so wrong.
Strangely, despite having made half a dozen orders with Snag over the last few years I have never thought to write to them, so well done for that
I would guess that quite a large number of their customers are already men without them needing to change anything, after all they do go up to quite large sizes.
There are a few clothes shops on the internet that have the occasional man modelling a garment more usually seen on women, I doubt whether it would be commercially viable to make separate versions of the garments in question so I think I am quite happy where we are.
I did review a pair of Snags with a photo, I have some more on the way this week and will do the same again!
Barleymower wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 9:09 pmBringing undue attention from the right (feared) sounds like deep down we believe the 'right' has right on heir side.The sexes are much closer than we are prepared to admit.
The far-right reactionaries do not have "right" on their side -- quite the opposite. They have inertia, misinformation, and mistaken nostalgia to go on -- NOT reality, "We" actually understand the problem better than most because we've been able to distance ourselves from those forces and have a clearer view of the problem.
The louder we shout about differences the more reduculous we sound. I'm astounded that we manage to get it so wrong.
We're not getting it wrong, we're using the wrong tactics at the wrong time because of cultural and societal shifts. The far-right reactionaries have the upper hand now, at least on the western side of "the pond", and we ignore that at our peril. We're not dealing with realism, rationality, or logic here -- we're dealing with raw "faith" in something rather bizarre (if not outright kinky), and we need to take that into account when judging our tactics.
It's best to choose one's battles wisely because the stakes can be quite high indeed. "Keep your powder dry."
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
My daughter-in-law used to work in clothing design (poorly paid, so she changed her job) and she, knowing my interest in skirts for guys, was telling me that one of her friends works for a company that designs childrenswear and does produce/market childrens' tights. There is some discussion about slightly modifying some in the 20 to 50 denier range which they already consider to be unisex - marketed as "kids' tights" rather than "girls tights", and will "accommodate boys' toilet needs" (??). My DiL wasn't entirely sure what they had in mind or what the market was and didn't think to ask. She suggested to me it could be for boys who wear skirts for school, but I remain a bit sceptical about as such boys are, I suspect, very few and far between. I suspect it's more likely that some parents are buying their boys tights to wear under trousers when the weather is really cold. Either way, the taboo which says boys don't wear tights appears to be crumbling.
The whole reason I came to snag tights was because I found a pair in my draw belonging to my wife and they were better than the ones I had bought which I don't wear because the are uncomfortable. I put them on and they were really comfortable and I wore them all day. Newly converted I decided to get a decent pair from snag.
My rational was; as Stu says above; the taboo around tights has gone. If the taboo around boys wearing skirts to school also went that would really make me happy.
I’m aware of Snag tights. I don’t buy them as I’m not really an opaque tights wearer (and the ones I have are shiny - better glide against clothing). However I have seen them on Instagram and they seem very supportive of the occasional man wearing them on their page.
All of my tights are from Snag and in size F. They have larger women in their a lot of their product photos, so they do market to the larger size audience. They ship quick and the transit time from Europe isn’t very long. My wife also loves their products. I have order her Halloween and Christmas tights along with my usual black footless tights I like. Easy Christmas present while getting a discount.
Haven't ordered from them yet but have come across Snag before and think they're a good brand. Quite like their focus on inclusivity and sustainability.
In terms of marketing to men, I have a couple of suggestions:
Openly display men modelling their tights on the website. I have seen a post of a man in a skirt on their Instagram previously, with a really positive reaction to it based on the comments. Needs to be a natural outfit, not just a man in a pair of tights. Could always have some with a man and woman in the same image.
Tweak the size guide so it accounts for men too. I think the idea of their alphabetical size guide works better than the usual small, medium large etc sizing you usually see with tights but their charts currently just account for women's clothes size e.g. size 12, 14 etc. Ok for us as we can purchase based on the skirt size we typically wear but this isn't really something applicable for the majority of men.
Kieran wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2024 10:24 pm
Haven't ordered from them yet but have come across Snag before and think they're a good brand. Quite like their focus on inclusivity and sustainability.
In terms of marketing to men, I have a couple of suggestions:
Openly display men modelling their tights on the website. I have seen a post of a man in a skirt on their Instagram previously, with a really positive reaction to it based on the comments. Needs to be a natural outfit, not just a man in a pair of tights. Could always have some with a man and woman in the same image.
Tweak the size guide so it accounts for men too. I think the idea of their alphabetical size guide works better than the usual small, medium large etc sizing you usually see with tights but their charts currently just account for women's clothes size e.g. size 12, 14 etc. Ok for us as we can purchase based on the skirt size we typically wear but this isn't really something applicable for the majority of men.
That's really good feedback Kieran. I'm going to message Snag back with your suggestion.
Snag could openly display men modelling their tights on the website. I have seen a post of a man in a skirt on your Instagram previously, with a really positive reaction to it based on the comments. It needs to be a natural outfit, not just a man in a pair of tights. Could always have some with a man and woman in the same image.
Tweak the size guide so it accounts for men too. I think the idea of your alphabetical size guide works better than the usual small, medium large etc sizing you usually see with tights but their charts currently just account for women's clothes size e.g. size 12, 14 etc. This is ok but isn't really something applicable for the majority of men.
Thanks for engaging with me. It would be great see the clothing situation improving for men, away from the male drab to more colourful exciting clothes that women enjoy. There are a lot of men out there who would enjoy the freedom of skirts and tights and would wear them if socially acceptable. Seeing a few men on your website would spread the message that it's ok to be a bit more adventurous and fun.
One thing I've noticed in the size guides for tights is the presumption that as people get taller, they also get wider! I mainly choose based on the leg length but that usually goes with hips significantly bigger than mine! I would imagine in marketing to men they might need to consider taller people who aren't exceptionally wide, esp as men's hips are generally narrower than women's anyway.
Barleymower wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2024 7:13 am
Snag could openly display men modelling their tights on the website. I have seen a post of a man in a skirt on your Instagram previously, with a really positive reaction to it based on the comments. It needs to be a natural outfit, not just a man in a pair of tights. Could always have some with a man and woman in the same image.
One thing I noticed on their website is each item you click on has a link to "share your Snags" which takes you to instagram so perhaps they also need those brave enough to submit their pictures to help promote.
Also, if they are to reap maximum benefit from marketing them for men it could be to their advantage to not only show men in skirts wearing them but also men in shorts in the picture avatar of the same products. This could be especially advantageous if some of the skirts worn are of the type that at first glance look a bit like shorts as seeing the two together might encourage a few short wearers to try a skirt option at some point and hopefully help to get men in skirts more visibilty.
