Nomenclature

[robehickman]

I disagree with this notion because it creates a conflation between functionality and gender expression - a lightweight skirt along the lines of the first one shown would be very cool and functional in hot weather - for anyone, the design of the first skirt shown would also behave in far more interesting ways if one were to dance in it.

The first one isn't designed primarily because of its range of motion and its coolness; it is designed that way to emphasise femininity. It is designed for the look, not its function. The colour, patterning and fabric makes it the garment a woman wears to be attend an event and be noticed. She's not going to wear it for work, or walking the dog, or doing the laundry.

While you may not see them wearing skirts in bright pink with flowers on, it isn't that uncommon to see male contra dancers wearing skirts of that general design (relatively full, very lightweight sheer fabric) because they 'float' in an interesting way while dancing. See videos of American contra dances on YouTube - I've also seen a small number of men wearing things like that at ceilidhs / contras / bals at folk festivals in the UK.

I don't think that what I have to say is revelatory to any degree, but it appears to me that a signifigant number of posters here actually like the idea of wearing "womens clothes" I haven't read every post and probably not very many as the number is overwhelming.
I've asked the same question in at least two other sites whose focus is men wearing skirts ets. The feedback centers and inclusion and that is okay even great as far as I am concerned but I think the idea ofclothes losing their gender specific conotations is not on the horizon.

Personally, I have no direct interest in wearing 'woman's' clothing and have zero desire to pass as female. What is sold as 'men's' clothing is simply not functional for me, it is all made out of scratchy / stiff materials that cause sensory problems, and restricts movement such that sitting on the floor in a lot of the postures I'm commonly sitting in is either impossible, or uncomfortable. Stretch knit trousers / leggings, or a circle skirt do not impose those limitations, and such fabrics are much more pleasant on the skin as well.

Available men's clothing is also so boring in its designs and colours.

[Coder]

I don't think that what I have to say is revelatory to any degree, but it appears to me that a signifigant number of posters here actually like the idea of wearing "womens clothes" I haven't read every post and probably not very many as the number is overwhelming.
I've asked the same question in at least two other sites whose focus is men wearing skirts ets. The feedback centers and inclusion and that is okay even great as far as I am concerned but I think the idea ofclothes losing their gender specific conotations is not on the horizon.

I think in an ideal world they would lose their gendered connotations, and I try not to refer to them as "women's skirts", rather, I try to refer to them as "skirts".

I think the only way greater society will come ot this realization is by men, slowly, taking up skirts and wearing them in an unambiguously male way. By this I mean just wearing them and changing nothing else about themselves. Treating them as a fashion item, and nothing more.

[Spirou003]

I'm going to often have a "speaking for all" to simplify the phrasing, but I'm speaking for majorities only. I know there are people doing different than what I write, and I'm not trying to conflate them into it (my post is already long, it would become unreadable if I always take them in account).

Starting from the birth, boys are taught that to become a real man, they need to be functional. This comes from various ways, but when the baby becomes a boy, the idea is already ingrained in him, in a stade where he's not yet in capacity to question all little bits of what is around him. So he naturally wears what he finds "functional" to become a real man, taken from what is labelled as "available for boys". If eventually what is available doesn't match with what he finds functional, given his age he has no other choice than taking the "less worst". At some point the boy learns to do dirty work which is labelled as "what a boy must be able to do for being a real man", in which he discovers why being "functional" is the only matter for clothing: you destroy these items by doing the work. And so the habit of dressing always the same without any intent to stand up appears.

Well, I know that nowadays not every male is doing dirty work as a job. But around me, a lot of men whose jobs are office jobs, are doing dirty work at home for financial reasons. I only know 6 men who are not doing such tasks (as far as I know). In them, 3 are still living with their parents. One did not need to do anything at his home because parents did the work for him. The other two have money to hire people for doing it at their place, but one of them recently told me that he finds himself miserable when he sees that changing a light is out of scope and he wants to learn this kind of things. Yesterday a friend wrote me that he recently got a loan to buy a house, and he's a bit stressed with all renovation to be done. He also told me about specific work that he couldn't do by himself, which I translate by "this guy is going to do dirty work". He's informatician, and his email counts him off of the list of guys not doing dirty work.

So, to come back to this thread. My point is, men are driven - in terms of clothing - by wearing things that are functional, not something that shows up or looks good. Skirts/dresses are never exhibited as "functional wearing" to the men, because they're always worn by women, and when women do dirty work they never wear skirts/dresses but rather worn trousers. So men don't even consider skirts/dresses as an option, because they've never been given any "functional purpose" of them. Unfortunately, decades of exclusivity for women to wear skirts/dresses made them considered as feminine, which has as a side effect that when a man wants to express feminity, skirts/dresses fulfill that function: looking feminine. Maybe, men need to discover that these clothes may have some other function even if it is only in specific circumstances (like being lighter in summer, fun to dance with, increase fertility, and so on). But I doubt they will in any short term come out of the "drab/boring/etc" because it would mean "looking good" which is not the goal of what they've been taught since ever to wear: "functional"

[moonshadow]

Put simply, it should be possible for a girl or woman to look unmistakably "girly", but being female should no more mean having a monopoly on unbifurcated garments (skirts/dresses) than men have on bifurcated garments (trousers/shorts). While I am more than happy to leave this garment for females.....

Both skirts are for females, unless you're a guy with wide hips and a narrow waist (not a common shape for a human male).

I've tried those skirts, and I even have a few skirts that I think look really cool... on the rack... but once I put them on, I'm reminded real fast that I'm just a mid-aged pudgy (chubby) guy.

Oddly enough, the floral skirt might be the most forgiving because it has more material, so as to not hug the hips so tightly. A guy like me would wear it high on the waist (on my belly basically), and the garment would hang straight down.

The denim skirt is made for wider hips with an "hourglass" figure, which I do NOT have. I can already tell how that will fit.... it will look very "off". If I wear it high on my waist, it's just going to hug to contour of my belly in an awkward shape, probably revealing the dreaded "bulge", and finally will just feel very tight and constraining. If I wear it lower, then my gut is going to hang out over it.

So in an ironic kind of way, the floral skirt is more of a "mans" skirt than the denim, the fact that pink roses = women and denim = men is completely arbitrary, the floral skirt would better accommodate the typical man shape of the inverted triangle. It's not the design on the fabric that makes the difference, it's the shape and cut of the skirt. Roman tunics, caftans, kilts, and they like are probably the most logical skirts for men, even the Macabi skirt seems to work nicely for a man's body shape, really just any skirt that doesn't hug the hips or follow the female "hourglass" figure.

[moonshadow]

Additionally, the floral skirt offers full stride, and you can sit and not have to cross your legs (there's plenty of fabric to rest between your legs so you don't flash anyone across from you).

The denim on the other hand offers no stride whatsoever. You can't run in it, you will have to cross your legs when you sit (in the feminine manner). The only disadvantage the floral skirt has is length. You'd be constantly stepping on the hem, but then again, plenty of men's skirts, caftans, etc hang low to the ground.

Why does a rose have to be feminine? The same criteria that we apply to skirts should apply to a flower...

[Stu]

Life in a drab, bland, boring, and ever-decaying world is not where I want to spend the last of my days.

I'm not advocating for that, although it might be a way to make some progress. I would suggest that far more men would be likely to consider wearing a skirt if it were denim, or a cargo style, than a pink, flowery chiffon affair. Once we break the men-don't-wear-skirts taboo and gain acceptance, then we can be a bit more adventurous when it comes to styles and colours. However, we should still leave certain styles for the ladies to display their femininity.

[Stu]

The denim on the other hand offers no stride whatsoever. ...

Why does a rose have to be feminine? The same criteria that we apply to skirts should apply to a flower...

I own four denim skirts of which two are called "pencil" and the other two are A-line. The pencil ones have elastane, so they have plenty of stretch for ordinary walking. If I wanted to climb over a gate, then they would need to be hitched up a bit. The A-line ones offer as much movement as you could possibly want. Also, back to the flouncy skirt with roses I depicted, who is ever going to wear that in a situation where you need a broad stride? It's not exactly a garment designed for fell-walking or gardening. The purpose of the extra fabric is to enable the garment to move - to "swish"; it's not to facilitate striding or climbing.

Why does a rose have to be feminine? Well, it doesn't - BUT - there are ancient associations between females and flowers going back to pre-history. A flower, especially a rose, is seen as both delicate and also a representative of fertility. How many men would want to bathe in rose petals? Or wear a scent that smelled of roses? Yes, we could abandon all that if we wished, but I don't believe most people would want to do that as the cultural association runs deep and attempting to do that would inevitably draw accusations of trying to feminise men - and this idea is becoming toxic. The other question arising from that is what are you willing to leave for the ladies to signify their femininity? If everything is de-gendered and a man can wear anything a woman can wear, then you are removing that option from females and I do not believe most people, men as well as women, want that. We value the gender difference. It reminds me of the adage: If you play the game well, you will get something, but if you try to get everything, you will end up with nothing. We need to play the game well otherwise we will meet resistance and even hostility and we'll be in the same position in decades from now.

[DrFishnets]

The other question arising from that is what are you willing to leave for the ladies to signify their femininity? If everything is de-gendered and a man can wear anything a woman can wear, then you are removing that option from females and I do not believe most people, men as well as women, want that.

Well, when it comes to the female of the species clothing and fashion is de-gendered and a woman can wear anything a man can so why can’t that be the same for men. It’s becasue most men either scared to wear skirts and dresses in fear of ridicule or they aren’t interested anyway. Personally, I think clothes are clothes and any gender can wear them as long as they fit and look good and most of all are very comfortable but unfortunately most men don’t think like that. Women can look just as feminine in men’s clothes just as men can look just as masculine in skirts and certain dresses. It’s colour scheme and the way it’s styled which is the key.

I’ve taken the first steps of wearing a skirt or dresses that is black or navy or a dark colour and I try to mix masculine with feminine. Black is a safe colour to start with for men who are worried they look too feminine in a skirt or dress. Personally, I’d leave high heel stilettos and makeup as feminine wear for the women but I’d de-gender skirts, dresses and even sheer hosiery for both men and women.

[Stu]

Well, when it comes to the female of the species clothing and fashion is de-gendered and a woman can wear anything a man can so why can’t that be the same for men.

In theory, it is the same for men. If you want to wear a cocktail dress, tights and high heels, nobody is stopping you - but you will be regarded as crossdressing. Similarly, if a woman wears dinner jacket/tuxedo, bow tie, flat lace-up shoes in black, nobody is stopping her - but she will be regarded as crossdressing. If someone does this habitually, then they will be considered to be odd, or trans, or in some other way that their choice of attire is expressing their sexuality. When it comes to clothes which are strictly functional, then the function is what matters, so a woman performing manual work on a construction site will generally wear the same as her male colleagues. For everyday clothes, women mostly opt for trousers (including jeans) or leggings these days and that's not dissimilar to what males wear. The limitations on men's choices are real, as we all agree, but should not be overstated and we need to be clear as to what exactly we want. Do we males want the right to go to a party in a cocktail dress without that being considered to be crossdressing? Personally, no. For formal events, we tend towards what is conventional for our sex and also to emphasise the gender differences. What I think we want includes everyday clothes like skirts and dresses to have options that are identifiably masculine and not mistaken for womenswear; some garments such as many skirt styles and pinafore dresses that could work as unisex (as jeans can do now); uniforms and corporate dress to have an alternative to trousers that males can wear.

Personally, I think clothes are clothes and any gender can wear them as long as they fit and look good and most of all are very comfortable but unfortunately most men don’t think like that.

But "look good" is subjective and what does "look good" to us is to a huge extent the result of conditioning. Also, it's not just a matter of looking good - we also seek societal acceptance to some extent. Unless and until that happens, men won't be able to wear skirts without attracting adverse comments and we won't see skirts being sold in mainstream outlets - so they will continue to be regarded as womenswear.

Women can look just as feminine in men’s clothes just as men can look just as masculine in skirts and certain dresses. It’s colour scheme and the way it’s styled which is the key.

Indeed, a curvaceous young woman can look feminine in a man's suit, or a shirt and jeans etc, especially if she is wearing full make-up. On the other hand, an overweight 55-year-old woman would struggle to pull that off and people might jump to conclusions as to why she chose to dress that way.

I try to mix masculine with feminine. Black is a safe colour to start with for men who are worried they look too feminine in a skirt or dress. Personally, I’d leave high heel stilettos and makeup as feminine wear for the women but I’d de-gender skirts, dresses and even sheer hosiery for both men and women.

I broadly agree. We should de-gender skirts and dresses, but I think we have to be realistic and not too provocative, at least to begin with. That was my original point with the images of the two garments I included. Let's get some styles accepted before we push the envelope. And let's leave some of the most feminine styles for the exclusive use of the ladies.

[Modoc]

Given what I'm gathering from this thread we're going to be confined to denim, khakis [0], boring styles, fabrics and drab colours for all time going forward. Along with all the other cr@p that's swirling around us at the moment, I think I'm just ready to give up and die.

Life in a drab, bland, boring, and ever-decaying world is not where I want to spend the last of my days.

Count me out of that world.


[0] Internet meme from a few years back: "Hitler wore khakis."

Crfriend I don't think any of us are advocating for such a drab and boring world as you describe. We are just making observations on things as we see them. I enjoy wearing pretty much everything that I want. I have many skirts and a few dresses in many fabrics and styles. I don't see many others doing so but I do see some. As long as I can dress comfortably as I please and not be harassed or degraded, neither of which has ever happened, then I'm perfectly satisfied with being sartorially different. The world at large is very accepting of men who do so. It's unfortunate that many of us men seem to want some sort of stamp of approval from society at large. LIfe is too short we can't spend our time waiting on the world to change. That in no way means we shouldn't be doing everything we can to change it.

[crfriend]

Crfriend I don't think any of us are advocating for such a drab and boring world as you describe. We are just making observations on things as we see them.

That wasn't the signal being transmitted, nor the signal I received which clearly stated that "men need to stay within the boring "masculine" cuts, fabrics, and colours. This was clearly transmitted. If the transmission was errant, then the transmission was errant, but I didn't pick up any evidence of that.

It doesn't matter really, as I suspect I'll retain my current rig-theme and colour pattern until I drop dead -- all black, head-to-toe, in male drab -- in honour of the new world I will be forced to "live" in (and will die in in likely short order)

I enjoy wearing pretty much everything that I want. I have many skirts and a few dresses in many fabrics and styles. I don't see many others doing so but I do see some. As long as I can dress comfortably as I please and not be harassed or degraded, neither of which has ever happened, then I'm perfectly satisfied with being sartorially different. The world at large is very accepting of men who do so. It's unfortunate that many of us men seem to want some sort of stamp of approval from society at large. LIfe is too short we can't spend our time waiting on the world to change. That in no way means we shouldn't be doing everything we can to change it.

As I was doing up until early November. Then the world changed -- and not for the better. It got instantly nastier, less understanding, more violent, and just generally more unpleasant. I now have no chance of escape from a dead-end and degrading "job", and will shortly have no access to health care. What do I have to look forward to or hope for in such a world.

[robehickman]

Oddly enough, the floral skirt might be the most forgiving because it has more material, so as to not hug the hips so tightly. A guy like me would wear it high on the waist (on my belly basically), and the garment would hang straight down.

The denim skirt is made for wider hips with an "hourglass" figure, which I do NOT have. I can already tell how that will fit.... it will look very "off". If I wear it high on my waist, it's just going to hug to contour of my belly in an awkward shape, probably revealing the dreaded "bulge", and finally will just feel very tight and constraining. If I wear it lower, then my gut is going to hang out over it.

That's the point I raised in another thread with there actually being tangible design differences between skirts for men / women due to differences in body shape. Garments are designed to fit a given kind of body.

Well, I know that nowadays not every male is doing dirty work as a job. But around me, a lot of men whose jobs are office jobs, are doing dirty work at home for financial reasons.

However, people wear different clothing in different situations.

[Faldaguy]

Wow, what a lot of hub bub about taking the gender label off clothing!

UA's point was quite simple & seems to me fundamentally pertinent: If we call items men's or women's rather than clothing -- we are allowing the box we are in to exist.

As to 'cultural' views; history, and feelings about femininity or masculinity --- do these matter, and how will my wearing a floral print skirt change that? I frankly don't give a hoot if a person is deemed feminine, masculine, androgynous or xyz!@#$%^ -- their appeal will be wired to my tastes -- including their style, and likely color, shape, carriage, and personality traits -- no clothing is going to alter the substance and chemistry. If any of us is so hung up on what others may think of our gender characteristics, you have built your own Supermax Alcatraz prison.

Spirou003 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2024 2:06 am
Well, I know that nowadays not every male is doing dirty work as a job. But around me, a lot of men whose jobs are office jobs, are doing dirty work at home for financial reasons.

I might take issue with the idea of "dirty" work: Some work is does indeed involve getting quite 'dirty' but work itself is seldom dirty, unless criminal in nature. More to the point: My housekeeper by her choice is always in a skirt, or dress -- and she tackles everything from floor to ceiling indoors, outdoor windows and more. I sometimes change out of my skirts for a a task in the wood, metal, welding parts of my shop; and I may toss on a pair of coveralls to crawl under the car, though equally often I've just donned an old denim "work" skirt the same as I might an old pair of jeans.

Clothing in my mind serves only two key purposes: Protection from the elements; and décor. Anything beyond that is is skirting mental health issues!

[Mouse]

I have shown in my DIY thread and my building site pics that working heavy work in a skirt is totally possible. The skirt in question has to be made out of tough material, so I use an old leather skirt at home and a Roman denim skirt at work.

[Uncle Al]

Wow, what a lot of hub bub about taking the gender label off clothing!

UA's point was quite simple & seems to me fundamentally pertinent: If we call items
men's or women's rather than clothing -- we are allowing the box we are in to exist.

Clothing in my mind serves only two key purposes: Protection from the elements; and décor.
Anything beyond that is is skirting mental health issues!

Precisely Faldaguy

We(members of Skirt Cafe') are allowing the box we are in,
to exist!

WE must change OUR attitudes and thought patterns to get out of the 'rut' we've placed ourselves in.
So far, EVERYONE at Skirt Cafe' continues, in their posts, to enforce Male & Female constructs.
Thus

Clothing serves only two key purposes: Protection from the elements; and décor.
Anything beyond that is skirting mental health issues!

Several posters have discussed items of clothing as if it is a 'fetish' for them. The feel like they're
getting away with participating in a TABOO, non-male situation or direction.
What I wear is for comfort, protection and medical needs(which I've stated before).

We need to get our minds healthy, accepting the truth that clothing protects, and decorates us.
Nothing more, nothing less. Protection and Decoration - THAT'S IT

You want to 'change the world'

Start with yourself

LEARN to undue the years of indoctrination you have endured.
Then you can 'spread the word' of what clothes really do - Protect and Decorate.
Clothing does not specify Sex or Gender, no matter who wears them.
Some 'styles' may be more 'provocative' than others but, that's just "Decoration".

Consider this: A person is like a 'Cake'. Clothing is 'the icing' (decoration) on the cake.
The icing can be made to look like anything you can imagine. Clothing is the same.
It can be made to look like anything you want(dream about).

OK - May we PLEASE stop the gendering of clothes Stop perpetuating this concept

It does get tiring when reading the same idioms, over and over again.

I didn't wear a woman's skirt, I wore a skirt - period

Uncle Al