Skirt Cafe is an on-line community dedicated to exploring, promoting and advocating skirts and kilts as a fashion choice for men, formerly known as men in skirts. We do this in the context of men's fashion freedom --- an expansion of choices beyond those commonly available for men to include kilts, skirts and other garments. We recognize a diversity of styles our members feel comfortable wearing, and do not exclude any potential choices. Continuing dialog on gender is encouraged in the context of fashion freedom for men. See here for more details.
Coder wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 2:39 pmCan't you have your cake and eat it too? In today's society - wearing a skirt as a man is gender non-conforming. But it's just a definition - not an identity <snip> I don't want my clothes, my interests, to define me - I do want
my works (one could say art), words, actions to define me.
(Underlined words are by me, not the original poster.)
This goes with the constant thought - a label.
A box to put unusual(weird ?) men in.
Society still thinks in terms of "A Label".
WHY, WHY, WHY
If YOU have a solution to this "problem", you might win a Nobel Prize
Uncle Al
Kilted Organist/Musician
Grand Musician of the Grand Lodge, I.O.O.F. of Texas 2008-2009, 2015-2016,
2018-202 ? (and the beat goes on )
When asked 'Why the Kilt?'
I respond-The why is F.T.H.O.I. (For The H--- Of It)
Coder wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 2:39 pm
I don't want my clothes, my interests, to define me - I do want my works (one could say art), words, actions to define me.
We humans define other humans in many ways depending on what we ourselves are interested in. So if I am a fashion nut, I may have a set of boxes in my mind where I file people from stylish to no hope. If I am a football nut, I will have a set of boxes in my mind labeled Liverpool, United, City, Not important Club etc.
You can never dictate how you would like to be defined, in another persons mind. All you can do is live your life as you want to present and see what others think of you, assuming they can even be bothered to acknowledge your presence and define you in their mind...... Remember, no one cares what you wear.....honest
Uncle Al wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 3:02 pm
This goes with the constant thought - a label.
A box to put unusual(weird ?) men in.
Society still thinks in terms of "A Label".
WHY, WHY, WHY
If YOU have a solution to this "problem", you might win a Nobel Prize
I don't see it as a negative or positive - just a definition. Just look at "fairycore" or "cottagecore" or any of the "cores" -> they just describe a style. I see it less of a negative compared to CD or TV, so maybe the world is slowly morphing to a place where there is no need of a specific label, and this is just a stepping stone. Do we need "skirtcore"? An esthetic defined by wearing skirts?
Coder wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 2:39 pm
I don't want my clothes, my interests, to define me - I do want my works (one could say art), words, actions to define me.
We humans define other humans in many ways depending on what we ourselves are interested in. So if I am a fashion nut, I may have a set of boxes in my mind where I file people from stylish to no hope. If I am a football nut, I will have a set of boxes in my mind labeled Liverpool, United, City, Not important Club etc.
You can never dictate how you would like to be defined, in another persons mind. All you can do is live your life as you want to present and see what others think of you, assuming they can even be bothered to acknowledge your presence and define you in their mind...... Remember, no one cares what you wear.....honest
I agree - I'm only saying that when it comes to me defining myself, not how others see me (that I cannot control). A lot of people online get wrapped up in this idea of defining themselves through their fashion - and that's fine - but I don't see myself that way.
Yes! This is my issue with wearing skirts meaning I'm being "gender non-conformant". That just reinforces the stereotype that skirts (and more) must be a feminine presentation of some kind. The sooner we get over that the better.
It is not possible to quickly get over it. Women had to fight the same battle when the started wearing trousers. They were gender nonconforming and were also called lesbians. They had thick skins and fought the battle. That is when women can wear anything that they want today and no one bats an eye. Men need to do the same and start with GNC. After a generation or two, skirts will be normalized for men. There are dues to pay for everything. Nothing comes free.
Also there is absolutely nothing wrong with being gender nonconforming, since by definition we are gender nonconforming when we don’t look like and act like a stereotypical male as defined by society. If you don’t want to be called ?GNC, you will need to wait for society to declare skirts as a man’s garment. I am not going to hold my breath or wait for that to happen.
While the plain meaning of "gender non-conforming" seems to include any guy in any skirt (maybe including kilts), the term has gained connotations many here would like to avoid.
It's true this will take time. We've been at it for a while, and we still have more to go. But letting others dictate the language will slow down our progress.
The term has not gained any connotations and is clearly defined in M-W and the Oxford Dictionary. Any other definitions assigned to the term are pulled from our own brains.
Coder wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 2:39 pm
Can't you have your cake and eat it too?
In one sense, yes.
Members have occasionally commented that when they wear skirted rigs in public, they take special care to make the outfit look good. Thinking carefully about how different items should go together.
So members will wear particular items for their own reasons, but serving as ambassadors for MIS by creating a good impression with those same items.
Grok wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 2:58 am
........... but we need to make something seem normal even though that something is a novelty for most men.
Which to me brings us back to the original hypothetical; to make skirts seem normal to most men they would loose a lot of what a lot of us love about skirts.
To me it is not a matter of making something become normal but getting others to accept something that is different. I believe that the latter is what most of us here are achieving, which is good.
Men me it is about the freedom for men to wear feminine garments and other fashion accessories just as women wear men's garments. It is about men and women being equal, and no shame for a man wearing women's clothing. If we have to masculinize the skirt, we will loose the beautiful colors and airy light material that many of us love about the skirts that we wear. Men can embrace the feminine, just as women have embraced the masculine in all areas of life. That is true freedom and the only exit from the Man-Box.
Uncle Al wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 3:02 pmSociety still thinks in terms of "A Label".
WHY, WHY, WHY
If YOU have a solution to this "problem", you might win a Nobel Prize
And the typical guy has two boxes for classification, "Normal" and "Queer". It's that simple. "GNC, trans=*, LGBTQWTF, and the like do not even appear on the RADAR. Until we can get the skirt out of the "Queer" box we're largely wasting our time.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
Coder wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 2:39 pm
I don't want my clothes, my interests, to define me - I do want my works (one could say art), words, actions to define me.
We humans define other humans in many ways depending on what we ourselves are interested in. So if I am a fashion nut, I may have a set of boxes in my mind where I file people from stylish to no hope. If I am a football nut, I will have a set of boxes in my mind labeled Liverpool, United, City, Not important Club etc.
You can never dictate how you would like to be defined, in another persons mind. All you can do is live your life as you want to present and see what others think of you, assuming they can even be bothered to acknowledge your presence and define you in their mind...... Remember, no one cares what you wear.....honest
Right-on Mouse. People have needed to label things into nice little categories since the caveman days and it will continue forever. I accept what I can get and the GNC label for me is applicable. Maybe I am gender confused, however there are other GNC men that are not gender confused and simply love to wear skirts and other feminine accessors such as heels and purses, etc. In my case the GNC label is welcomed because 10 years ago, the label was "homosexual" and I do not fit into that category. We are making progress thanks to Harry Styles and other GNC men and therefore we should take what we can get. Remember that women fought the same battles and were classified as lesbians at one time in the past. IMHO, we are being strong and making progress by accepting the GNC label per the M-W or Oxford Dictionary definition. When people as why I wear what I wear, I tell them to see these definitions.
Uncle Al wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 3:02 pm
This goes with the constant thought - a label.
A box to put unusual(weird ?) men in.
Society still thinks in terms of "A Label".
WHY, WHY, WHY
If YOU have a solution to this "problem", you might win a Nobel Prize
I don't see it as a negative or positive - just a definition. Just look at "fairycore" or "cottagecore" or any of the "cores" -> they just describe a style. I see it less of a negative compared to CD or TV, so maybe the world is slowly morphing to a place where there is no need of a specific label, and this is just a stepping stone. Do we need "skirtcore"? An esthetic defined by wearing skirts?
jamie001 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2024 5:28 pm
Men of SkirtCafe,
Support the your woke up in the morning and found by some miracle that men in skirts are the happening thing and that skirts on men are totally accepted and even encourage and welcomed by society. You will be lauded and exalted for wearing skirts that meet societies standards. Sounds wonderful doesn't it? Well wait, there are several big caveats:
1. Only skirts in manly color palettes like black, brown, blue, and gray will be accepted. No baby blue, pastel or the colors. What shade of black, brown, blue, or gray would you like?
2. Only skirts made from heavy material are accepted so that they will appear to be really masculine. No light and airy skirts are permitted.
3. Footwear will be masculine and manly, Women's shoes will not be tolerated.
4. Only masculine handbags will be allowed. The bag must be made for men and marketed to men. Women's handbags of any kind are not permitted.
4. You must at all times present a masculine manly appearance. No makeup, nail polish, or any accessories that could be considered to be feminine.
What are your thoughts? Is this paradise or is it Hell?
Ugh! What onerous restrictions!
I wear dresses, heels, nail varnish (polish) and makeup. And I like to wear dresses with floral patterns. I guess I thoroughly folded, spindled, and ripped up my man card awhile ago.
Those restrictions listed above are only a variation of the Great Male Renunciation.
Am I gender confused? No way. It takes a man to sing second bass in a church choir, going down to C2, two ledger lines below the bass staff.
Coder wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 3:49 pm
I'm only saying that when it comes to me defining myself, not how others see me (that I cannot control). A lot of people online get wrapped up in this idea of defining themselves through their fashion - and that's fine - but I don't see myself that way.
No, I am sure you don't. Most of us technical folk, see ourselves as what we can design, program, fix etc. My clients pay me to design, fix, program their systems in their big houses. They care little with how I dress, as long as their TVs work, the house lights work etc.
The fun fact is, that all of my new work is from recommendation from my current clients or other professionals I work with. I occasionally wonder how I am described, but I get more than enough work, so it can't be too bad.
jamie001 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2024 5:28 pm
1. Only skirts in manly color palettes like black, brown, blue, and gray will be accepted. No baby blue, pastel or the colors. What shade of black, brown, blue, or gray would you like?
2. Only skirts made from heavy material are accepted so that they will appear to be really masculine. No light and airy skirts are permitted.
Members (and likely some non-members) are part of the Vanguard. What does the Vanguard do? Two things:
1. Experimentation. Trying different things; fining out what works, and what does not.
2. Setting an example for others.
By its nature, the Vanguard will tend to exceed, pull ahead of, what others are doing at the time. We shouldn't be surprised if the first steps of others seem timid to us.
)
