Skirts, Pants, and Deuteronomy 22:5

[mr seamstress]

I found this article interesting to which led other interesting articles.
https://www.voxclamantisindeserto.us/20 ... onomy-22-5

[moonshadow]

Good ol' Vox... wonder what ever happened to him? Anyone heard anything?

[Ray]

A very insightful article.

I’m not sure I agree with the rationale for the U.K. not getting hung up on 22.5. Scots wearing kilts are cited as a reason. I’d suggest that the main reason is that the U.K. is not that religious. In 2023, over 50% of those questioned in a survey stated that they did not believe in God (or an equivalent).

It’s just not part of our fabric of life any more. If you stated 22.5, you would most likely get a blank look of confusion.

For my part, I do not believe in the existence of any gods. The bible is therefore a work of fiction to me, and it has no bearing on my life.

I do like the idea of the Ten Commandments though, but I prefer the mantra dished out in Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure: “Be excellent to each another”.

Each to their own.

[rivegauche]

That is an interesting and well-written article. I was raised in a Scottish community that described itself as Christian but was really much happier with the Old Testament than the New. It was a community where men wore kilts occasionally and some did all the time and there was never the slightest suggestion of any scripture-based criticism of this. I read somewhere that the Deut. 22.5 verse was to do with military service but if any of my religious friends raise the matter I refer them to other verses in the chapter about mixed fibres and battlements on their home. Bible-bashers have cited scripture out of context for centuries as a device for controlling the behaviour of others. Though the UK is certainly becoming less religious we can see the younger generation using social media to exert the same sort of control, effectively cancelling celebs who have said something they disapprove of, and context be damned. Wokery is the new Old Testament.

I don't always stop at man in skirt and also do the whole crossdressing thing, going out in public ACTING as (but not identifying as) a woman. I am one of the ones pretending. I occasionally worry that I might be guilty of deception, but as no one is even slightly disadvantaged by my actions I relax about it. I have been told by one woman that I have balls going out dressed like that which was an unexpected reaction.

I think Deut 22.5 might be the origin of a lot of the prejudice in the UK about men in skirts, but it is no longer a conscious connection for anyone other than the most narrow of religious cults. The ten commandments are no more than the rules of a civilised society so most can be endorsed by non-believers.

You still get people who quote scripture at you as though it were some sort of mic drop. Wow. They really don't get how irrelevant the Bible is to non-believers. People continue to die in huge numbers every year due to minor differences in their religious dogmas and the so-called Christians used to torture and even execute those who did not conform. That tells you all you need to know about why we should not allow such texts to rule the day in the 21st century.

[denimini]

Yes, good article about a subject most of us can easily ignore.
If someone quoted Dueteronomy 22:5 to me, I would have to ask them if they also thought 25:11-12 still applied.

[STEVIE]

Ah, ignorance can actually be bliss after all!
My take is simple, I will discover the literal truth at some point in my future.
None of us can dodge that particular bullet.
Steve.

[Uncle Al]

OK - I'm not throwing a wet blanked on this but,
WHY is this subject being brought up again?

This 'subject' has been hashed and re-hashed about 25 times, or more, already.
This is something that needs to be put behind us - ASAP

We need to continue promoting skirts for men/Men In Skirts
not bringing up deterrents spouted by bigots with closed minds

Geesh Please, give it a rest already

Uncle Al

[FranTastic444]

I’m not sure I agree with the rationale for the U.K. not getting hung up on 22.5. Scots wearing kilts are cited as a reason. I’d suggest that the main reason is that the U.K. is not that religious. In 2023, over 50% of those questioned in a survey stated that they did not believe in God (or an equivalent).

I'm with Ray on this one. Ray and I hail from the same neck of the woods and what I'm about to say is not consistent across *England* and does not apply to Scotland, Wales, NI. In my opinion, there is more of a religious influence in England in places that have a large Irish (and to a lesser extent, Scottish) heritage. I have in mind places like Liverpool and Manchester in particular. That to one side, I feel that religion does not play a big part in the lives of many inhabitants of English towns and cities. The vast majority of people that I know in England are either atheist / agnostic / apathetic or what I would call "culturally religious" - i.e., they do not follow the doctrine of a religion, but may occasionally attend religious events.

Although I know of very few people in the UK who could quote biblical verse to me beyond the most well known passages, this is not the case in the US where many people I know have a detailed knowledge of the good book. [0]

In my opinion / experience, at least until recently, resistance to clothing choice in England is much, much, much more likely to come from a perceived link to (and disdain of) homosexuality than religious doctrine.

[0] - Having thought about this for a while, maybe my perception of the extent / strength of religiosity in an environment could be driven in part by Americans being more up-front and outgoing about their religious views than Brits?

[rode_kater]

After Europe got tired of religious wars and broke the power of the church, extremists tended to move to the American colonies where they could practice their extremist views. We in Europe have always tried to keep a larger distance between the church and politics because we know how it ends. It feels like America and some other countries around the world need to learn this lesson the hard way.

The Christian Taliban is not any nicer than the other version. Politics and religion are a very dangerous combination, you really don't want to go there.

So not only don't I really care about Deuteronomy 22:5, I don't need to know or care whether anyone else does or not. Someone's religion is a private affair and trying to push your religion onto others is simply Not Done and Very Rude. I don't know what faith (if any) my colleagues have; it's really none of my business.

(I did enjoy the discussion about the translation from Hebrew. I pulled out my copy of Azimov's Guide to the Bible, but it's doesn't have anything to say about this specific verse.)

[rivegauche]

OK - I'm not throwing a wet blanked on this but,
WHY is this subject being brought up again?

This 'subject' has been hashed and re-hashed about 25 times, or more, already.
This is something that needs to be put behind us - ASAP

We need to continue promoting skirts for men/Men In Skirts
not bringing up deterrents spouted by bigots with closed minds

Geesh Please, give it a rest already

Uncle Al

Posting this doesn't detract from anything else. If you don't want to read it, don't read it. I for one found this article provided new insight and I welcome its posting. The verse is probably the main source of the criticism of men in skirts in western society, and periodic discussion of its significance is absolutely justified,

[Fred in Skirts]

OK - I'm not throwing a wet blanked on this but,
WHY is this subject being brought up again?

This 'subject' has been hashed and re-hashed about 25 times, or more, already.
This is something that needs to be put behind us - ASAP

We need to continue promoting skirts for men/Men In Skirts
not bringing up deterrents spouted by bigots with closed minds

Geesh Please, give it a rest already

Uncle Al

Posting this doesn't detract from anything else. If you don't want to read it, don't read it. I for one found this article provided new insight and I welcome its posting. The verse is probably the main source of the criticism of men in skirts in western society, and periodic discussion of its significance is absolutely justified,

It was just 12 short years ago that this verse was used against me by a woman in pants.. I have not had it used since, nor have I heard anyone using it. In my area of the so called "BIBLE BELT" I have only heard it used that once and never since. So why do we need to rehash it over and over again????? I agree with Al it is unnecessary to do so. I will go on to say if you can prove to me it is necessary then I will not say anything else on the subject!!!!

[Jim]

So why do we need to rehash it over and over again????? I agree with Al it is unnecessary to do so.

There are new people in the cafe since the last discussion. They want to be part of the conversation. That's fine with me. People have already said what I had to say--that other verses in the same chapter aren't applied--so I don't need to chip in.

[mr seamstress]

wrote Uncle Al » Sun Mar 03, 2024 10:18 am

OK - I'm not throwing a wet blanked on this but,
WHY is this subject being brought up again?
This 'subject' has been hashed and re-hashed about 25 times, or more, already.
This is something that needs to be put behind us - ASAP

I live here in América in section that is called Bible Belt. Some of these States in Bible Belt pass a crossdressing law in 2023. Courts invalidated these laws. I deal with this constantly. It is not just from conservatives but also from liberals too.
The state I live in also tried to pass a new crossdressing law. This subject isn't going away soon in where I live.
Does this make my reasons valid? if not I can name more?

[moonshadow]

Some of these States in Bible Belt pass a crossdressing law in 2023.

Do tell more... I've not heard of this. I've heard of drag show bans, but that's not a blanket "crossdressing ban", and realistically doesn't apply to us, transgender women, or even crossdressers in general.

[moonshadow]

The state I live in also tried to pass a new crossdressing law. This subject isn't going away soon in where I live.

I've traveled all around many red states, and I've never been hassled by law enforcement. I've crossed paths with a few people [civilians] that think what I do ought to be banned.

I guess they figure my rights don't matter... ?

If I should ever find myself defending this in court, I will invoke religious freedom.

I have the right to

a) not have someone else's religious views imposed upon me and

b) my own religious conviction, which is already documented on this site, and protect my right to express my spirit as I see fit.