Where is the truth?

[Barleymower]

According to some, femininity is considered inferior in the male, that mens clothes are considered unisex while female clothes are exclusively for women. A man wearing a skirt would in some places still be ridiculed and shamed.

Personally, I think people should express themselves as masculine or as feminine or a mixture as they want provided they don't restrict others from doing so. I really don't consider femininity to be inferior and I don't know anyone who does. I do not consider women to be inferior to men. I know that's the "go to" people often used for why it's so looked down upon for men to express femininity but that doesn't make sense especially when you read on this forum (and elsewhere) of the struggles we have when we dare cross the feminine boundary. There seems to be an element of double speak, for example men are in charge but there's a long list of forbiden clothes, items, mannerisms under the banner of unmanly. One of my biggest gripes is that men do not decide themselves what is manly. Other's (men and women), make that distinction. This seems unmanly in itself, where's the selfdetermination?

Men's clothes are basically unisex and women's clothes are exclusively theirs? To me that says women and femininity are revered higher than men and masculinity. It's ok for women to "dress down" so to speak, but not ok for men to raise themselves to something that is so revered. And if femininity was considered inferior, then why would women and men ridicule men who express femininely? It's not right. But that's just how society rolls.

Btw many men like being solely masculine. Just as many women like being solely feminine. There's nothing wrong with that.

I know how scary and crappy it is to feel like a "guy in a skirt". The question is where does the truth lie? and what can we practically do to change how MIS are viewed?

[crfriend]

According to some, femininity is considered inferior in the male, that mens clothes are considered unisex while female clothes are exclusively for women. A man wearing a skirt would in some places still be ridiculed and shamed.

This notion is fairly new, and largely promulgated by the rad-fem faction and is -- sadly -- accepted as "truth" by society. The raw fact that it's not a ground-truth makes no difference whatsoever.

If we take the notion that men and women are fundamentally equal seriously, all the strictures and condemnations cease. The question is whether our partners are willing to make that jump, because in the modern world women hold, firmly, the upper hand.

Equality feminism triumphed in the 1970s before being shunted aside by Radical "feminism" (which is a bit of a misnomer for most of those adherents are more male than female), leading to the discrediting of those in the Equality camp (who are largely on our side now). So, we're living in a warped world at the moment, which means that we need to be careful of where our keels are as men lest we hit rocks.

There really should be no pushback in the modern realm when it comes to MIS save for older folks who are stuck in their old ways and the rad-fems who demand dominion over men. Other than those things, there is no rational reason for discord.

[Coder]

According to some, femininity is considered inferior in the male, that mens clothes are considered unisex while female clothes are exclusively for women. A man wearing a skirt would in some places still be ridiculed and shamed.

I don't think people consciously think this way. I tried to convince someone that this was a factor, and she wasn't buying it. To some - at least in their minds - just because men and women are different, traditionally have had different roles and clothes - this doesn't speak to one being inferior to another - it's just "how the world works".

For me, anyways, when I read this I reflected on it and said to myself - "Gee, that could be a reason I'm afraid to be seen in a skirt. I don't believe this, and if this is an unconscious bias, I reject the notion and there's only one way to prove to myself I don't think this way."

I really don't consider femininity to be inferior and I don't know anyone who does. I do not consider women to be inferior to men.

Neither do I. (obviously there are outspoken individuals on the internet)

There seems to be an element of double speak, for example men are in charge but there's a long list of forbiden clothes, items, mannerisms under the banner of unmanly. One of my biggest gripes is that men do not decide themselves what is manly. Other's (men and women), make that distinction. This seems unmanly in itself, where's the selfdetermination?

That's the part that cracks me up - and is my favorite hypocrisy.

And if femininity was considered inferior, then why would women and men ridicule men who express femininely? It's not right.

The "logic" goes that a man, adopting "women's" clothes is lowering himself because femininity is considered inferior (per generic "society"). I can't help but think this accurately describes some segments of the population - but in practice I think it's more of people thinking really deeply about the issue and trying to find a conclusion that fits their worldview.

I know how scary and crappy it is to feel like a "guy in a skirt". The question is where does the truth lie? and what can we practically do to change how MIS are viewed?

Wear our skirts as if nothing has changed.

[Stu]

It may be helpful to consider masculinity and femininity from a linguistic perspective. Both qualities are totally inter-dependent; one can only exist because the other exists. They are an antonymic pair in the same way as:

large - small / tall - short / heavy - light / dim - bright / strong - weak

Without the existence of the converse state, these adjectives are meaningless. They are also gradable - so:

Tom is masculine, but Richard is more masculine. Lucy is feminine, but Jenny is more feminine.

So, can a man be feminine or a woman be masculine? In theory, yes, but using these adjectives in this way can be viewed as offensive, or suggestive of homosexuality, or ugliness (if a woman). Alternatives can be even worse, such as calling a woman "butch". My personal view is that is unnecessary, undesirable and something should refuse to accept. I should be able to say: "Jonathan has many feminine qualities" and that should not be viewed as derogatory as some men are indeed feminine just as some women display masculine traits.

That said, I don't think we can, or should attempt to, completely divorce this gender spectrum between masculinity and femininity from biological/physiological sex. Many things we consider feminine are viewed as being associated with girlhood/womanhood for a reason - and the opposite for masculinity and males. There is no inherent reason a man can't wear a skirt other than current fashion, but there is a subliminal and primeval reason why women look good in false eyelashes and lipstick and men look ridiculous.

[Coder]

There is no inherent reason a man can't wear a skirt other than current fashion, but there is a subliminal and primeval reason why women look good in false eyelashes and lipstick and men look ridiculous.

Not trying to argue with you - but isn't this just social conditioning? How do you know this is subliminal/primeval? Not that I'm interested in either of those things, but it seems a lot of anguish - not just MIS but other groups as well - is defining what precisely is "primeval" and what is learned behavior.

[STEVIE]

There is no inherent reason a man can't wear a skirt other than current fashion, but there is a subliminal and primeval reason why women look good in false eyelashes and lipstick and men look ridiculous.

Stu,
Looking good or looking ridiculous are just judgemental assessments from the observer, how can there be any empirical evidence for that.
Men wearing cosmetics and accoutrements like false eyelashes may possibly be considered very attractive in some cultures, so a universal instinct that it's wrong or undesirable seems most unlikely.
On subliminal influences, I could be inclined to agree.
The subtlety of the social conditioning on boys to avoid any behaviours deemed in the least feminine, puts it well within the subliminal definition.
I cannot recall being forbidden from wearing a skirt, but I knew very well that it would not be acceptable either.
What's changed in 60 years?
Steve.

[Stu]

... isn't this just social conditioning? How do you know this is subliminal/primeval? Not that I'm interested in either of those things, but it seems a lot of anguish - not just MIS but other groups as well - is defining what precisely is "primeval" and what is learned behavior.

This is debated. However, some anthropologists have suggested that women with large, red lips are considered voluptuous because those lips convey sexual arousal and some even link that to the blood-engorged vulva when a woman is ready for intercourse. I am not saying there is solid evidence for that, but it is certainly a strong hypothesis. With regard to false eye-lashes, this is more solid and comes from the concept of neoteny. Females are often perceived as sexually attractive if they convey youthfulness, innocence and vulnerability, and large eyes with long lashes convey this impression. Karen Straughan has produced a fascinating video on this phenomenon and how women exploit "the eyes" in this way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C46rSIfTum4

Stu

[Stu]

Looking good or looking ridiculous are just judgemental assessments from the observer, how can there be any empirical evidence for that.
Men wearing cosmetics and accoutrements like false eyelashes may possibly be considered very attractive in some cultures, so a universal instinct that it's wrong or undesirable seems most unlikely.
On subliminal influences, I could be inclined to agree.
The subtlety of the social conditioning on boys to avoid any behaviours deemed in the least feminine, puts it well within the subliminal definition.
I cannot recall being forbidden from wearing a skirt, but I knew very well that it would not be acceptable either.
What's changed in 60 years?
Steve.

You are right that it can vary across cultures. In some cases, long-established cultural practices can overcome ancient and visceral responses over time and replace them. With regard to lipstick and false eyelashes, see my response to Coder.

I think there is an element of this when it comes to boys wearing skirts. In modern, western culture, skirts have become associated with vulnerability. A wearer has to moderate how he walks and sits, and more adjustment of clothing is needed than with trousers. Dealing with strong winds, climbing up or over things or riding horses - activities more associated with risk-taking and masculinity, are less straight forward when in a skirt. We have challenged that in our little community as it has become unnecessarily limiting when it comes to our sartorial choices. But this all comes down to the age-old question yet again: do we want to wear skirts to express femininity or, as in my case, do we want to see skirt-wearing redefined so as to take away the feminine connotation? These two are, I am afraid, unreconcilable. This is the zero sum game that we must confront.

[Ozdelights]

But this all comes down to the age-old question yet again: do we want to wear skirts to express femininity or, as in my case, do we want to see skirt-wearing redefined so as to take away the feminine connotation? These two are, I am afraid, unreconcilable. This is the zero sum game that we must confront.

This has made me think. I regularly wear very colourful and patterned shirts. This creates many interactions and conversations. Is it because these people believe that is outside of normal masculine style? So I don't want to be 'feminine', I want to be me.I want to wear any colour, pattern or style that looks okay on me whether it be top, bottom or head to toe without judgement of my masculinity.

[Coder]

But this all comes down to the age-old question yet again: do we want to wear skirts to express femininity or, as in my case, do we want to see skirt-wearing redefined so as to take away the feminine connotation? These two are, I am afraid, unreconcilable. This is the zero sum game that we must confront.

This has made me think. I regularly wear very colourful and patterned shirts. This creates many interactions and conversations. Is it because these people believe that is outside of normal masculine style? So I don't want to be 'feminine', I want to be me.I want to wear any colour, pattern or style that looks okay on me whether it be top, bottom or head to toe without judgement of my masculinity.

Same (thinking about this one) and I think I align more with what Ozdelights wrote. I think there is a third choice: skirt wearing as fashion/style, and that's all.

Today I stopped at a store and was carrying a fun bag - some might call it a purse - shaped like a slice of toast with an egg on it. I've used this before several times, but this is the second time a cashier has complimented me on it. It's crazy, silly, and just plain fun: why can't our clothes evoke that? Why can't we be ourselves without trying to project a masculine or feminine appearance?

(The answer is probably something along the lines of "well that's how the world works". Well guess what - I'm getting tired of "the way the world works". Not that I reject all convention or tradition or norms - but some conventions are meaningless or (in my mind) shouldn't have the importance that they do.)

[STEVIE]

These two are, I am afraid, unreconcilable. This is the zero sum game that we must confront.

Stu,
My own feeling is that the sum doesn't equate to zero.
Skirts for fashion, skirts for gender expression, there's no reason this should be unreconcilable.
Your motivation for your choices may be different from mine, but I am happy at that and I hope you are too.
Perhaps, it would help to use a sliding scale, you're pure fashion, I'm 20% feminine and so on.
Provided that each person is able to find a comfort zone at any point on that scale, the individual differences are irrelevant.

A wearer has to moderate how he walks and sits, and more adjustment of clothing is needed than with trousers. Dealing with strong winds, climbing up or over things or riding horses - activities more associated with risk-taking and masculinity, are less straight forward when in a skirt.

Here is the problem in a nutshell, "modesty", real or perceived.
School skirts and dresses are now attributed as a reason that girls do not get enough spontaneous exercise.
I'm not delving into that, but where does that leave boys, trousered!
However, the irony is the Kilt, the most masculine of skirts.
Images of the Bravehearts beating the crap out of their opponents, riding horses and all the other manly pursuits with no thoughts of affronting public decency. Hmmmm, where, indeed is the truth?
Worth noting, the Scottish Highlanders had a reputation for fighting buck naked at times. The Great kilt was a handicap, modesty could get you killed.

To sum up, why any one chooses to wear anything is irrelevant to me, I can only vouchsafe on my own behalf and strive to spread that message of freedom as far as possible.
That was way longer winded than I had originally intended.
Steve.

[Barleymower]

According to some, femininity is considered inferior in the male, that mens clothes are considered unisex while female clothes are exclusively for women. A man wearing a skirt would in some places still be ridiculed and shamed.

This notion is fairly new, and largely promulgated by the rad-fem faction and is -- sadly -- accepted as "truth" by society. The raw fact that it's not a ground-truth makes no difference whatsoever.

If we take the notion that men and women are fundamentally equal seriously, all the strictures and condemnations cease. The question is whether our partners are willing to make that jump, because in the modern world women hold, firmly, the upper hand.

Equality feminism triumphed in the 1970s before being shunted aside by Radical "feminism" (which is a bit of a misnomer for most of those adherents are more male than female), leading to the discrediting of those in the Equality camp (who are largely on our side now). So, we're living in a warped world at the moment, which means that we need to be careful of where our keels are as men lest we hit rocks.

There really should be no pushback in the modern realm when it comes to MIS save for older folks who are stuck in their old ways and the rad-fems who demand dominion over men. Other than those things, there is no rational reason for discord.

I might be wrong Carl but I seeing further headway being made in the name of feminism in some areas for example female senior managers talking about say, the menopause in company wide business updates. And losing ground for example in schools. My kids don't see themselves as feminists. The rad fems have given feminism a bad reputation and kids don't want be a part of it.
Movement for MIS is glacially slow but look around the world and glaciers are retreating. Change is possible, in fact inevitable.

[Barleymower]

The "logic" goes that a man, adopting "women's" clothes is lowering himself because femininity is considered inferior (per generic "society"). I can't help but think this accurately describes some segments of the population - but in practice I think it's more of people thinking really deeply about the issue and trying to find a conclusion that fits their world view.

Truly, I believe that men are being manipulated. I do not see myself as a misogynist but I have speak as I find. Many women I meet are perfectly fine and supportive towards the men in their lives. Other women see men as protector and provider. In their minds he cannot do that and be feminine. As soon as becomes feminine he adopts a female role and probably not provide and protect her anymore. For this reason any perceived feminine attributes from men will be resisted, this includes attire.
Where is this manipulation? We are told we are patriarchal but for the majority of us this is far from the truth. We have no control of the women around us, in fact the opposite is true. We are ones being controlled. An example of this control is in the way men dress.

This was the point really of the thread I started.

"Men's clothes are basically unisex and women's clothes are exclusively theirs? To me that says women and femininity are revered higher than men and masculinity. It's ok for women to "dress down" so to speak, but not ok for men to raise themselves to something that is so revered."

We (men) are constantly told that we are the aggressors when in fact we 'under the thumb' we are the underclass.

[Barleymower]

There is no inherent reason a man can't wear a skirt other than current fashion, but there is a subliminal and primeval reason why women look good in false eyelashes and lipstick and men look ridiculous.

Some women look good in makeup, some men look good in makeup. It has more to do with skill of makeup artist than the gender of the person. There's nothing primeval about it.