Coworker started showing me pictures of him in selfmade skirts

[zjo]

I work as a manager at a fairly large IT company. I handle big clients so at work I dress quite formally and also act like it. I rarely go the office anymore but the last visit is one to remember. I had an off-topic hallway conversation with one of our newer team leads who I don’t know that well. He is a big, tattooed, pierced and overall scary looking guy in his 30’s who used to work as bouncer and a security guard. I somehow ended up talking about my leatherworking hobby with him and the guy said that he has also done it because by education he is a clothes designer. He smirked and said that I probably didn’t see that one coming and we laughed at it. I showed him pictures of my work, mostly women’s handbags, and he wanted to show he’s work too. The first thing he showed me was an ankle length leather skirt he made for himself for cosplay. We started talking about the fastening mechanism and he said it’s a wrap skirt somehow assuming that I knew what it meant. I then compared it to a kilt’s fastening mechanism and feel giving away that I know how they are made and what they feel like to wear and asked if he had worn one. He said that obviously yes because he has made them too and started showing me pictures of kilts he made for himself. I complimented him on them and then he progressed to showing pleated skirts. All made for himself, proudly worn and definitely not cosplay costumes anymore. And suddenly there we were - a potential heavy metal band member and a seemingly uptight yuppie on the company hallway talking about how good the skirts looked on him. I have to admit it felt quite absurd but at the same time very heartwarming.

I don’t know if any of the other guys were listening to us but if they were the conversation probably seemed absurd to them as well as most of them always wear a black t-shirt and/or a hoodie and they don’t seem to care about fashion in the slightest. I kinda hope they were eavesdropping because it might have broadened a view or too.

We eventually moved on to other subjects but I will definitely return to this one with him. The conversation made me feel that there is hope yet. When guys like him start to wear skirts no other guy will dare mock them and it will set an example that you can wear a skirt and look very masculine at the same time. Good times, good times.

[pelmut]

I work as a manager at a fairly large IT company. ..

If you are the manager you could set an example by coming to work in a skirt.  With a bouncer to back you up, you wouldn't have any trouble with the other employees.

[Barleymower]

I appreciate your reticence in breezing into work in a skirt backed up by a hefty skirt clad boncer type. I'm sure your both would be shaking your heads at that prospect.
Inclusivity is big in all companies now. In fact I have a compulsory in person Allyship and Inclusion workshop where I work. I won't be arriving at the workshop in a skirt but I will be taking an active part in the workshop and I will try, in my small way to steer discussion towards dress in the workplace.
If you are a senior manager then maybe you could do the same? The good news is you have an advocate and most likely a few more among the conservative types who in their own minds think all this inclusively is nonsense.

[zjo]

The idea of both of us marching in skirted is intriguing and it came to me as well and I’m sure both and either one of us would get away with it easily when it comes to our coworkers. However it could be only done on an internal recreational event because the rest of the time I dress to represent the company and to blend in with the people I deal with so it’s not a personal choice and I cannot draw attention to myself with too personal dressing choices.

When it comes to other people I’m always ready to stand up to defend their right to wear whatever they choose as long as it is otherwise decent to wear at an office (no visible underwear and such). We too have allyship and inclusivity guidelines and I think I need to check what they say about this topic if anything and if need be then talk to HR about it. If a suitable opportunity arises I will definitely take advantage of any chance to broaden peoples horizons in this matter or any else where equality still needs work. My home country ranks seconds or third in gender equality but we still have work to do and male fashion freedom is one of the blind spots we have.

[zjo]

So I checked the company guidelines on dressing and found only a few mentions:
-For certain roles we buy you the clothes and the choices are safety and practicality related. In these jobs no sane person would ever wear something with hems anyway so skirts and dresses are not allowed for women either.
-For client meetings try to apply the clients dressing code. This goes for me.
-Otherwise there are no requirements or restrictions.

The way I read it is that other than the two exceptions, you are free to wear whatever you choose. I also checked the internal guidelines for personal conduct and inappropriate commenting, humiliation, mocking, name calling, exclusion etc. are all considered bullying and as such are reasons for terminating the employment. We are also required to report any misbehaviour we see and I know this also happens every now and then.

So, the way I see it is that almost everyone is free to wear a skirt or a dress and any negative commenting, action or lack of action regarding it might get you fired.

[Barleymower]

OK that's all good.
Honestly I'd say go for it. If you find yourself to be properly uncomfortable then you can brush it off as a joke. If you come home with smile on your face...
That could be the green light to wearing a skirt to work (occasionally) and build up to a more general look. if there are no clients meetings then why not?
It's a good opportunity to explore what allyship really means?
Have you seen the Ted Talk on the Danish chap who wears skirts to work?

[GerdG]

The way I read it is that other than the two exceptions, you are free to wear whatever you choose...

So, the way I see it is that almost everyone is free to wear a skirt or a dress and any negative commenting, action or lack of action regarding it might get you fired.

It sounds all very good, BUT the reason that skirts and dresses on men are not mentioned might be that no one had imagined that one of their employees would turn up in such garments. '
But you know the company, I don't. If you are convinced that it should have no consequences, go ahead.

[Dave]

zjo wrote:

> So, the way I see it is that almost everyone is free to wear a skirt or a
> dress and any negative commenting, action or lack of action regarding it
> might get you fired.

out of interest what country are you in?

[Myopic Bookworm]

-For client meetings try to apply the clients dressing code.

Maybe you need to find a client with a very broad-minded dress code! If a female client wears trousers, is that a sign that their dress code is trousers, or that their dress code does not enforce old-fashioned gender norms (and might accept a man in a smart skirt)?

[zjo]

OK that's all good.
Honestly I'd say go for it. If you find yourself to be properly uncomfortable then you can brush it off as a joke. If you come home with smile on your face...
That could be the green light to wearing a skirt to work (occasionally) and build up to a more general look. if there are no clients meetings then why not?
It's a good opportunity to explore what allyship really means?
Have you seen the Ted Talk on the Danish chap who wears skirts to work?

Yeah, I have to consider it next summer if a suitable moment arises. At the moment it's -20c/-4F so I won't be going in a skirt anywhere And talking about jokes, if I and the "bouncer" both went to work in a skirt for the first time at the same day, everyone would definitely think it's some sort of joke
I have seen the Danish guys Ted Talk although I don't remember it that well anymore, I have to check it again.

The way I read it is that other than the two exceptions, you are free to wear whatever you choose...

So, the way I see it is that almost everyone is free to wear a skirt or a dress and any negative commenting, action or lack of action regarding it might get you fired.

It sounds all very good, BUT the reason that skirts and dresses on men are not mentioned might be that no one had imagined that one of their employees would turn up in such garments. '
But you know the company, I don't. If you are convinced that it should have no consequences, go ahead.

out of interest what country are you in?

I'm in Finland. We have no school uniforms and most workplaces have no dress code so most people dress quite casually and practically. Because of equality laws and long societal education on the subject, almost all rules and restrictions are the same for men and women and you need a good reason to deviate from that. For example our company's dress code doesn't specify gender at all and none of the guidelines mention gender except when listing things that can't affect your treatment or benefits at work. Applying different dress codes for men and women would most likely violate several laws and the constitution here. It doesn't mean that they don't exist but I think that is because most people are happy with the status quo or too scared to challenge it. I'm kinda wishing a man would go to a court over the right to wear a skirt at work because it would definitely end up in a victory, several news articles and a lot of conversation on the topic which would make the general population aware of the issue. (I was married to a judge for a long time and also studied some law myself at the uni so I'm quite familiar with our judicial system ).

Fun fact: the Finnish language grammar is gender neutral. It doesn't have different pronouns for men and women so we only have one word for he/she. We also don't use masculine, feminine (and possibly neutral) articles like eg. French, German and Spanish nor do we use different words based on the speakers gender like eg. Spanish and Japanese. We used to have words like "foreman" but they have been all changed to "foreperson" etc. Since the language doesn't force you to categorize things by gender it makes an excellent starting point for equality because research shows that language shapes the way you think. In French skirt is "la jupe" (feminine) and in Spanish "la falda" (feminine) but in German "der Rock" (masculine). I would say it's more difficult to think a man in a skirt when the whole language implies that it's a feminine thing. Germans however seem to live by their own rules

-For client meetings try to apply the clients dressing code.

Maybe you need to find a client with a very broad-minded dress code! If a female client wears trousers, is that a sign that their dress code is trousers, or that their dress code does not enforce old-fashioned gender norms (and might accept a man in a smart skirt)?

I think a lot of clients would allow it generally but unfortunately I mostly deal with C-level executives who tend to be over 50, conservative, uptight, formal and entitled. One CEO even snarked at me for growing a beard because he thinks they all look untidy no matter how well groomed. Ïf I went there in a skirt it would be an unimaginable circus and not in a good way