Christian Bretheren lumping us in with the crossdressers again.

[timemeddler]

It should be noted that I know of some Christians in my area who still don't accept the idea of women wearing pants, so at least there's a measure of fairness at the end of the day.

[JeffB1959]

Meh! Who cares what narrow minded, perpetually outraged bible thumpers think? I damn sure don't.

[FranTastic444]

Videos like this just reaffirm my staunch atheism

Should folks like Pol Pot be used to reaffirm my rejection of atheism? There seem to be misguided folks in any belief system.

This is not the way to win acceptance.

I'm not a history buff here so I stand to be corrected, but I thought that Pol Pot's murderous, despotic regime was driven by a philosophy of totalitarianism. He did not, as far as I am aware, specifically kill in the name of atheism (though he did ban all organized religions).

[Midas]

This thread seems to me to be a waste of time. We know there are plenty of (religious and other) nut jobs in the world. The point of choosing to wear a dress or skirt is that we don’t care what they think, so why waste time and head space discussing just that?

[Coder]

This thread seems to me to be a waste of time. We know there are plenty of (religious and other) nut jobs in the world. The point of choosing to wear a dress or skirt is that we don’t care what they think, so why waste time and head space discussing just that?

At one point in my past her words would have given me pause - and were I not to have thought deeply about those words - her message might have set me backwards. So, I think these discussions are fruitful because if there are members on the fence due to religious concerns, no other way to hash it out except to discuss it. I think it’s better to bring in an outside opinion and debate the merits of it rather than contrive fake scenarios of “what people say or think”. And perhaps too, if enough leave comments on her video, could give her something to contemplate.

[rivegauche]

Yes, we could just ignore the religious nut jobs, but almost all of the problem we have socially with skirt wearing is down to Deuteronomy. The same chapter of the Bible condemns the wearing of mixed fibres and requires your home to have battlements. This isn't just nut jobbery - it is highly selective nut-jobbery.

[Barleymower]

Finally, it feels sometimes these questions are rooted in an unspoken fear that men will take away the pretty things women have all to themselves. As if there is some god-given right for women to wear pearls - shiny baubles and the like.

If I ever had a problem with women it's the unspoken privilege as you describe. There's never an explanation for it, just a shrug and refusal to discuss why it is so. Men 'real men' see it as their unspoken duty to uphold these privileges.
Many, most women these days don't bother with it. Maybe the price is too high?

[Coder]

Finally, it feels sometimes these questions are rooted in an unspoken fear that men will take away the pretty things women have all to themselves. As if there is some god-given right for women to wear pearls - shiny baubles and the like.

If I ever had a problem with women it's the unspoken privilege as you describe. There's never an explanation for it, just a shrug and refusal to discuss why it is so. Men 'real men' see it as their unspoken duty to uphold these privileges.
Many, most women these days don't bother with it. Maybe the price is too high?

Oh and it's not just jewelry - right? We don't need to be too specific about this.

I think the healthy approach is, we are just sharing in their privilege - not trying to take it away.

[crfriend]

I think the healthy approach is, we are just sharing in their privilege - not trying to take it away.

The real hilarity here is that most women do not exercise the "privilege" -- they don't care about it because they don't need to. They've already largely won, so they can toss aside all the frippery. Of course, this has the effect of making them about as attractive to the average male as the average male is attractive to the average male.

Thus, there is more than enough to go around. There should be no worries.

[TSH]

This thread seems to me to be a waste of time. We know there are plenty of (religious and other) nut jobs in the world. The point of choosing to wear a dress or skirt is that we don’t care what they think, so why waste time and head space discussing just that?

Because these religious nutjobs also have power, especially in the White House. We absolutely should care what they think if they can pass laws which prohibit our freedom to wear skirts and dresses.

[denimini]

This thread seems to me to be a waste of time. We know there are plenty of (religious and other) nut jobs in the world. The point of choosing to wear a dress or skirt is that we don’t care what they think, so why waste time and head space discussing just that?

I tend to agree. There are many threads that start about someone who has criticised men wearing skirts. There will always be someone who disagrees with what we do, whether eating meat or drinking alcohol, and we are not deterred nor write home about it. Unless it is Government policy or something that actually affects us we should not care.

[crfriend]

This thread seems to me to be a waste of time. We know there are plenty of (religious and other) nut jobs in the world. The point of choosing to wear a dress or skirt is that we don’t care what they think, so why waste time and head space discussing just that?

Because these religious nutjobs also have power, especially in the White House. We absolutely should care what they think if they can pass laws which prohibit our freedom to wear skirts and dresses.

This is the crux of the problem, especially for US citizens -- these nutjobs have a lot of power and no respect for others' opinions. I would not expect this to be an issue in the developed world as that has checks and balances on power, but those checks and balances are absent in the USA. This explains why forward-thinkers in the US are "rather nervous" in these New Dark Ages.

[Dust]

…provided it's already accepted as part of local culture, though I do see a "chicken and egg" paradox forming here, where as how does one change culture without trendsetters that are willing to buck established norms?

That’s the part I’ve been struggling with - because I do think in 100 years it will be more common, and what’s so wrong with being a trendsetter? Does that mean true christians are to avoid trends, and blend into society? What does that say of people who buck those trends, are they heathens to be damned in the fires of hell? Being a bit sarcastic on that last point as it is a deep discussion that this forum really doesn’t need to get into. But at the same time, not an easy discussion to bring up in christian forums because the internet lacks nuance. I contemplated bringing a topic like this up in a catholic forum, but I just don’t think people can wrap their minds around men doing quirky fashion. It just doesn’t exist in their worldview.

Christians are called contradict the world, not conform to it. At the same time, we aren't supposed to get overly concerned with the things of this world. So fashion is generally not a major point of discussion outside of modesty.

I actually did bring up kilt wearing and the general idea of male skirt wearing on a Catholic forum, and got some discussion, not outright condemnation. That was over a decade ago.

[Coder]

I actually did bring up kilt wearing and the general idea of male skirt wearing on a Catholic forum, and got some discussion, not outright condemnation. That was over a decade ago.

I feel like things have changed a bit, for the negative, and online is a bit nastier nowadays. I suppose it depends on where one goes on the internet, but I fear bringing this subject up would cause a lot of angry discussion. Heck, I could be wrong - but I don't feel like I need to have the discussion anymore, which is kinda refreshing.

[Dust]

I actually did bring up kilt wearing and the general idea of male skirt wearing on a Catholic forum, and got some discussion, not outright condemnation. That was over a decade ago.

I feel like things have changed a bit, for the negative, and online is a bit nastier nowadays. I suppose it depends on where one goes on the internet, but I fear bringing this subject up would cause a lot of angry discussion. Heck, I could be wrong - but I don't feel like I need to have the discussion anymore, which is kinda refreshing.

That forum was an odd little corner of the Internet, in some ways like the Cafe, in that while things could get heated and certain hot topics often turned into hundred page arguments, people could be civil and have discussions about a lot of things, and it felt like you actually got to know your fellow active members a bit. Many there (including the site owner) described themselves as misfits.

One of the hot topics that led to long arguments was women in pants. It was that conservative, although there were many on all sides of the issue. It was somewhat in that context that I brought up men in skirts, and was received fairly well, mostly a brief but thoughtful discussion with with honest questions.