Interesting old (oct 2020) Mumsnet forum, mainly about Mark Bryan

[familyman34]

While recovering from a heavy Christmas meal, I was browsing various online sites when I came upon an interesting old (oct 2020) Mumsnet forum about Mark Bryan, 15 pages in all. I can't find any previous references to this on SC.

What struck me was that, once one discounted the negative comments about his choices in shoes, how many of the remaining comments were actually positive, probably more than 50% (and Mumsnet is usually such a nasty site!). I would like to have copied several of the comments, but there were too many in the end; I think that even Carl would be sympathetic with quite a few of the opinions!

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rig ... der?page=1

[r.m.anderson]

Have seen comments/pictures on other forums/media about Mark and his astonishing wardrobe.
Very tastefully done - and he wears it well (he's got the body and frame for it).

[Modoc]

I must admit that Mark Bryan was a bit of an inspiration for me early on. I think I had gone out in skirts a few times when I first got sight of news about him, and after seeing what he was wearing, I felt rather ordinary, even drab, and that's good for me. It seems that whenever I see stories about Mark, they are always positive.

[Neoshaone]

I follow Mark in Instagram and Pentrest. Saw a very interesting interview with him on YouTube. His is a very interesting, down to earth guy.

[Dave]

In contrast to this is a discussion about policing what men wear!

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rig ... ns-clothes

[crfriend]

In contrast to this is a discussion about policing what men wear!

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rig ... ns-clothes

Most of that is typical "feminist" drivel and not worth the electrons it take to store and transmit it. If one wants to talk about "queering", take a look at the "feminist movement" as an exemplar -- and the damage it's done to everybody, not just men. Women were the first to lose theirs, and then worked like mad to make sure what men had access to was utter garbage. Everybody lost in this one.

[Coder]

That newer thread on mumsnet has some outdated/hurtful ideas - but it also has some things to think about:

1) There is no "men's skirt movement". We have the odd retailer here and there, we have those of us who wear skirts (or really whatever style we choose to wear) as men. But this doesn't make a movement. Maybe it's the start, maybe we are outliers in a world of boring people. But a movement takes dedication and effort - it takes activism - it takes a cause. Men's fashion freedom? pfffft - no one - and I mean no one - cares about us in that way. So if we wanted to change things - what more can we do?

2) Stop accepting creepy behavior. SkirtCafe has a good reputation, but head over to Reddit and... sorry but there are very few places where MIS is represented as a fashion/style choice. And the places that are have... questionable postings.

3) I know it may sound feministic, but the sexualization of women's clothes and appearance is a real thing. I think it's a fair discussion to ask "Why would a man want to adopt highly-sexualized clothing/accoutrements?" You could see the conversation go back and forth on what this means, where the line is drawn. Is it added body parts, the kinds of shoes or skirts, makeup? If men are being policed should women be? We live in society - we don't live outside of it - and so we can't say it isn't a thing that doesn't effect us. Can you flip this and does a similar effect take place with men (ie, shirtless TV ADs) or is that somehow different and "pure" because it's women doing the looking?

4) Finally, they kept ascribing "attention seeking" behavior to some men. First off, from what people here have written, I just don't see that as a motive. But even if so - what of it? What is so shocking about people wanting attention? I think they failed to make the distinction from men climbing the social ladder by presenting femme -> that's a different issue altogether, but they pretty much labeled all non-conforming men as such (don't like the phrase, but what can I say). They conveniently ignore that a lot of women like being the center of attention - that's not to say this justifies any bad behavior by men - but attention seeking is something people do and it's not somehow worse when men do it.

5) I'm not going to get into the GC aspect of their discussion as it's not relevant to me, or I suspect this board.

6) Oh, and they kept bringing up "no one wants to wear historical" clothes like knights, togas, etc... I mean, the thought never crossed my mind, but sure - I'd be up to trying out something weird and different. And we've all seen and lamented the loss of a lot of historical male costume to boring drab.

[crfriend]

5) I'm not going to get into the GC aspect of their discussion as it's not relevant to me, or I suspect this board.

Out of curiosity, what does "GC" mean in this context? In mine it tends to mean "Garbage Collection".

[Coder]

5) I'm not going to get into the GC aspect of their discussion as it's not relevant to me, or I suspect this board.

Out of curiosity, what does "GC" mean in this context? In mine it tends to mean "Garbage Collection".

Gender Critical. It loosely translates to “can of worms”

[crfriend]

Gender Critical. It loosely translates to “can of worms”

That's hilarious on the face of it because in radical "feminism" there is no "feminine" gender, only masculine. Thus, it must be something they use to beat genetic men up with. Lovely.

[Coder]

Gender Critical. It loosely translates to “can of worms”

That's hilarious on the face of it because in radical "feminism" there is no "feminine" gender, only masculine. Thus, it must be something they use to beat genetic men up with. Lovely.

I think the biggest issue I have with that discussion (though there are many) is the hypocrisy of the person who started it:

I get to decide how I feel about what other people are wearing.

...

It it feels off to me it feels off to me and I don't care if you think I'm 'judgey'.

Which is fine - no one is saying she has to think a certain way. However... what she's pushed throughout the thread is the equivalent of "slut-shaming" towards men - which I'm sure she is totally against when it is against women. Again, see points #2 & 3 that I wrote - I don't think we should accept creepy behavior, and men who cross certain boundaries should be called out.

[Barleymower]

Gender Critical. It loosely translates to “can of worms”

That's hilarious on the face of it because in radical "feminism" there is no "feminine" gender, only masculine. Thus, it must be something they use to beat genetic men up with. Lovely.

I think the biggest issue I have with that discussion (though there are many) is the hypocrisy of the person who started it:

I get to decide how I feel about what other people are wearing.

...

It it feels off to me it feels off to me and I don't care if you think I'm 'judgey'.

Which is fine - no one is saying she has to think a certain way. However... what she's pushed throughout the thread is the equivalent of "slut-shaming" towards men - which I'm sure she is totally against when it is against women. Again, see points #2 & 3 that I wrote - I don't think we should accept creepy behavior, and men who cross certain boundaries should be called out.

Coder, not wishing to start a fight but what creepy behaviour and from who? Men who dress up in women's clothes?

[Coder]

Coder, not wishing to start a fight but what creepy behaviour and from who? Men who dress up in women's clothes?

Not from people here. Go to Reddit (see, right there, first mistake), go to the r/Menskirts forum. Lots of - and I'm being judgey here myself - creepy outfits that do not strike me as "fashion", often cross-posted to other subs that have nothing to do with fashion/style. See my points above (2 & 3).

Here's something she wrote:

I agree dress codes in some situations are fine.

I just think they can also be different for men and women and that this actually protects women from some creepy men.

In context the immediate example someone gave of a man at an opera house (wasn't a skirt) and is what I would label creepy. But her last point - I don't sense any equality. Vis a vie - are there any ways a woman can be creepy or bad through dress? Or is it only limited to men? Do they have issues with butch women who appropriate "men's looks"?

I suppose their discussion doesn't really impact us here that much -> a lot of what they are debating is related to CD/TV and also some trans issues. However, it feels close to home because most of them label all men who wear skirts as weirdos, and that is an unfair characterization.

[Barleymower]

Coder, not wishing to start a fight but what creepy behaviour and from who? Men who dress up in women's clothes?

Not from people here. Go to Reddit (see, right there, first mistake), go to the r/Menskirts forum. Lots of - and I'm being judgey here myself - creepy outfits that do not strike me as "fashion", often cross-posted to other subs that have nothing to do with fashion/style. See my points above (2 & 3).

Here's something she wrote:

I agree dress codes in some situations are fine.

I just think they can also be different for men and women and that this actually protects women from some creepy men.

In context the immediate example someone gave of a man at an opera house (wasn't a skirt) and is what I would label creepy. But her last point - I don't sense any equality. Vis a vie - are there any ways a woman can be creepy or bad through dress? Or is it only limited to men? Do they have issues with butch women who appropriate "men's looks"?

I suppose their discussion doesn't really impact us here that much -> a lot of what they are debating is related to CD/TV and also some trans issues. However, it feels close to home because most of them label all men who wear skirts as weirdos, and that is an unfair characterization.

OK I know what you mean. I see some outfits on some men and I think YUK.

I think there is definitely an element of social conditioning. We are trained to accept that female members of our society can wear 'sexy' clothes. When a man does the same and wears exactly the same same clothes suddenly our eyes are opened and we see the same clothes on the man differently. We can't truly explain why we don't like what we see, so we rationalise it by blaming the man? He's a creep, it's a fetish, he's sick. Yet when a women does it, it's suddenly OK again? Looking at it objectively, are we to blame, not the man, women or the clothes?
There is a whole raft of female attire to promote sex, to be worn as part of sex. Yet we are also told that ladies can wear it just because they like it, it makes them feel good. Feel 'sexy'. If a man wears the same it's an illness, a crime almost.

It's messed up and blaming people does not fix it. What do we as a society do to rectify the imbalance?

[Coder]

It's messed up and blaming people does not fix it. What do we as a society do to rectify the imbalance?

Yes - totally agreed (both this and your larger paragraph hits the nail on the head). I think this comment from the other site was actually a good way to put it:

The ONLY "rules" will accept around clothes is that they must preserve social norms of decency. Not social norms of gendered stereotypes.

Which begs the question - what are the bounds, which ones are damaging, which are allowable? And who makes those decisions? Often "wars" will erupt over this (though not here for a while) about what kind of skirt is proper - or just kilts - and has caused a rift in the past. I feel that right now there is no good answer - that what men feel comfortable wearing is what will determine what ends up being acceptable, but this is a long-time process - no single person or architect/fashion house will make that decision. And that's a big "if".