"freedom. Society and only society will provide the answer, not those of us who are asking the question."

[Barleymower]

News gets around and my gossipy Dad tells my cousin (the oldest of the three) that I wear skirts. He said he is was very supportive as he explained that my youngest son occasionally likes to wear skirts and my daughter (child) is non-binary.
Now my youngest cousin starts posting this on his FB page.

Screenshot_20231111_100354_Facebook.jpg

I'm not overly concerned as I hardly see him anyway. But it is an example how no matter how good an argument is put forward, the bigot will put their own slant on it.

PS I've borrowed the quote for the title of this thread from stevie on another thread started by Coder

[STEVIE]

Now my youngest cousin starts posting this on his FB page.

How old is this youngest cousin BM?
Age and maturity do not always coincide, but that FB thing underlines a bit of what I meant and maybe more.
A guy in a skirt cannot be deemed to be impersonating a female but the eejits and small minded bigots will not see that.
For them, skirts for men cannot be, skirts are for the females of the species.
Sadly they form a major part of society who will broadly tolerate this weird aberration but never fully accept it as a normality.
I did use the term "cannot" deliberately, it is not a choice, the concept is beyond the limits of their imagination.
Steve.

[Barleymower]

How old is this youngest cousin BM?

He's 60 Stevie. Macho. Ex jockey. All three cousins are macho. One motorcycle champion. One Royal Marine commando with three tours of Northern Island under his belt (he is actually the nicest of the three).
Not a surprise really as their Dad was also a jockey, very macho with a very tough conservative mum.

[STEVIE]

He's 60 Stevie.

My case rests, my generation too.
Thank the Gods of all religions, that we are not all cast in the same mould.
Our hope lies with the kids seeing things in a better light.
Steve

[Jim]

"Pretend he's a woman" refers to a view of transexuals. It does not relate to men who wear skirts.

[pelmut]

"Pretend he's a woman" refers to a view of transexuals. It does not relate to men who wear skirts.

No, we [transexuals, transgender etc.] know we are women but our birth certificates and our bodies keep trying to tell us otherwise.  We have to conform to the stereotypical views of others, so as to be recognised as what we know we already are.  We cannot be biologically female - but neither are a lot of people whom we unquestioningly class as 'women'.  (At least as many women are incapable of childbearing as those who are capable of it.)

[Barleymower]

"Pretend he's a woman" refers to a view of transexuals. It does not relate to men who wear skirts.

Jim, he does not refer to me, it could just be a coincidence that he started posting this kind of thing recently. News does get around though especially in families. It's therefore unlikely that he was not having a little go.
If I see him I will confront him for sure. We've known each other all our lives after all.

[Jim]

"Pretend he's a woman" refers to a view of transexuals. It does not relate to men who wear skirts.

No, we [transexuals, transgender etc.] know we are women but our birth certificates and our bodies keep trying to tell us otherwise.  We have to conform to the stereotypical views of others, so as to be recognised as what we know we already are.  We cannot be biologically female - but neither are a lot of people whom we unquestioningly class as 'women'.  (At least as many women are incapable of childbearing as those who are capable of it.)

That's why I said "a view of transexuals". There are different opinions. I referred to one view (not mine) and you to another (also not my view). I'm glad to hear you express your feelings and have no need to argue about the subject.

[pelmut]

"Pretend he's a woman" refers to a view of transexuals. It does not relate to men who wear skirts.

No, we [transexuals, transgender etc.] know we are women but our birth certificates and our bodies keep trying to tell us otherwise.  We have to conform to the stereotypical views of others, so as to be recognised as what we know we already are.  We cannot be biologically female - but neither are a lot of people whom we unquestioningly class as 'women'.  (At least as many women are incapable of childbearing as those who are capable of it.)

That's why I said "a view of transexuals". There are different opinions. I referred to one view (not mine) and you to another (also not my view). I'm glad to hear you express your feelings and have no need to argue about the subject.

I think we are in agreement. My argument is with people who think transgender is a lifestyle choice or something practiced by people acting out a delusion and trying to impose it on others.  I would also argue against people who think that wearing a skirt signifies anything about the wearer other than the fact that they are wearing a skirt -- which, I hope, puts me in agreement with everyone here.

[crfriend]

My personal suspicion is that we're all in broad agreement on these matters, and that anything that's different could be worked out by way of open discussion.

What galls me personally is when folks read things into it that aren't there, hence my standard comment of, "What if it's nothing but a fashion statement?" I recall getting mightily miffed at PDX Dave about his assertion that if a man dons a skirt then he's automatically on the trans-* scale and thus, the "It's a fashion statement!" comment was made quite forcefully several times. I had to have that out with my current lady-friend who for a while persisted with, "What's it a sign of? Are you 'gay'?" I was finally able to drive the point home of, "It's a fashion statement and not one whit more. It has precisely zero to do with my sexuality." (with the latter part delivered with a wry smile and a bit of a playful leer).

When you misclassify a guy it's likely to cause hurt and needlessly antagonise him. Don't do it; use other cues to sort the issue. They're pretty obvious and hiding in plain view.

[rivegauche]

"Pretend he's a woman" refers to a view of transexuals. It does not relate to men who wear skirts.

This is a generalisation. I occasionally venture out and about completely dressed as a woman (bust, make up, wig, body language, scent, voice) so am pretending to others that I am a woman. I use the word acting rather than pretending. I am ACTING, and in an appropriate custom for my role. I don't believe I am a woman any more than actor playing Napoleon in a film believes he is the Emperor. I do not feel I am remotely transexual. I am just a bloke have fun .... acting. Society has no box for men who wear womenswear without gender dysphoria or sexual arousal. Some of us just do it because we enjoy it - it is fun. I wear the clothes at home most of the time, with the bust, jewellery, but no make-up (except a bit of lippie sometimes) or wig or female body language. When I go out presenting as a woman I am often with a woman friend, and when we are alone in the car I revert to male voice and body language. Women who know us both often use female pronouns for me because they find it easier to do so the way I am dressed - I am neither flattered nor troubled by this - If they use "he" it's OK because I am a man. but if they use "she" I can hardly complain as I have gone to a great deal of trouble to look like a "she". Though I have occasionally been assumed to be a woman this is not my aim - my aim is to be as elegant as possible in my costume and in my acting. I don't actually care about 'passing' - I would be much happier if anyone who interacted with me concluded that I had made a REALLY good job of ACTING. If you want a name for what I do, I call it gender tourism. Imagine someone who loves going to France, eating French food, drinking French wine, speaking French, driving on the right, smelling of garlic. Flattered of someone assumes they are French, but at no stage does he imagine himself to BE French, or want to live there or become a French citizen. And sometimes I wear a skirt or a dress in public while presenting as a man. Skirts and dresses are both more comfortable and more beautiful than trousers.

[Jim]

Jim wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 6:31 am
"Pretend he's a woman" refers to a view of transexuals. It does not relate to men who wear skirts.

This is a generalisation. I occasionally venture out and about completely dressed as a woman

Sure. Sounds like fun, but I wouldn't sacrifice my beard for it. But I think the statement in the original quote was about the writer's view of M>F transexuals.

[jamie001]

No, we [transexuals, transgender etc.] know we are women but our birth certificates and our bodies keep trying to tell us otherwise.  We have to conform to the stereotypical views of others, so as to be recognised as what we know we already are.  We cannot be biologically female - but neither are a lot of people whom we unquestioningly class as 'women'.  (At least as many women are incapable of childbearing as those who are capable of it.)

That's why I said "a view of transexuals". There are different opinions. I referred to one view (not mine) and you to another (also not my view). I'm glad to hear you express your feelings and have no need to argue about the subject.

I think we are in agreement. My argument is with people who think transgender is a lifestyle choice or something practiced by people acting out a delusion and trying to impose it on others.  I would also argue against people who think that wearing a skirt signifies anything about the wearer other than the fact that they are wearing a skirt -- which, I hope, puts me in agreement with everyone here.

For me, my skirts signal femininity as does my women's shoes, red or pink nail polish, women's purses, women's perfume, women's pantyhose, femme hairstyle, and the list goes on and on. When people see me, they know I am playing for the girl's team!

[STEVIE]

When people see me, they know I am playing for the girl's team!

That's perfectly fine Jamie as you present as you wish.
However, a skirt or even clothes in general give no absolute indication of the wearers preferred shade of gender.
The rigid concepts of "team" are what caused me so many problems as a kid and continue to hamper freedom for men and boys today.
There is no girl or boy's team, we are all in this together whether we like it or not.
Steve.

[Ozdelights]

That's perfectly fine Jamie as you present as you wish.
However, a skirt or even clothes in general give no absolute indication of the wearers preferred shade of gender.
The rigid concepts of "team" are what caused me so many problems as a kid and continue to hamper freedom for men and boys today.
There is no girl or boy's team, we are all in this together whether we like it or not.
Steve.

Very well said Steve.