The Drone Zone

[zjo]

Reading women’s reactions to this young guy showcasing skirts makes me think that standing proudly of the crowd might actually boost one’s chances of finding an SO.

Sorry ZJO, but the women are supportive of that one guy who is showcasing skirts that will dwindle to a huge degree when they are in the situation of choosing a significant other.
Put the dude out in the real world and see how he fares there, just not the same at all.

Steve.

I know what you mean and the ”Men should be able to wear skirts just not my man” -effect is very real. In my almost 30 years of dating women I’ve however come to the conclusion that what I wear has very little effect on the attention I get. I’ve had luck in the most ridiculous outfits and been unlucky in very stylish outfits. It all depends on who, where, when and how. Usually people look for SOs with similar values and showcasing that you refuse to follow arbitrary rules and think for yourself is exactly what some people are looking for.

[Barleymower]

OK based on accepted statistics, around 3% of straight British men cross-dress and while some call irrelevant, it is all we have.

That 3% alone makes the numbers of "men in skirts" look pretty insignificant and achieving the 10% you mentioned even less likely.
As for my "uniqueness", that lies somewhere in my candour not my present situation.

Stevie that 3% figure just isn't true in a real sense. Another way of phrasing that question is "what do you put first, your sex life or your clothes?" Your straight forward attitude should not be an issue. If we live in a world where distorting the truth is right then the world must change. Don't lose your candour.

I totally agree with you Steve that women are not about to take a MIS as a partner. To find a way out of this mess men find themselves, we need look backwards, at present and where we are heading.

How did we get here? According to my supportive wife, men discarded skirts, took trousers for themselves and told the women "they are just for men". Now, some of us want our skirts back and the women (in general) are not agreeing. They are playing the very powerful sex card to stop men in their tracks and it's working, it's working too well. They are dipping into the men's wardrobe and taking whatever they choose. What would happen if we protested? Male masculinity is undervalued and much more fragile than anyone gives credit (because that would be gay) and consequently men are simping at every turn while equally trying look manly. It's an impossible situation.

How do we get out of this problem? We need to know who or what we are up against. We need to be unemotional about it and realistic about what we can do change perceptions.

There are a lot of people standing up for women, that's good because women have been pushed aside for a long time. At the same time who has mens interests in mind, in an egalitarian way? Any man who currently stands up for men is branded a misogynist. So how about MIS standing up for men? Difficult for anyone to accuse a man of misogyny when he standing there wearing the flag of femininity, the skirt .

[zjo]

.

I totally agree with you Steve that women are not about to take a MIS as a partner. To find a way out of this mess men find themselves, we need look backwards, at present and where we are heading.

How did we get here? According to my supportive wife, men discarded skirts, took trousers for themselves and told the women "they are just for men". Now, some of us want our skirts back and the women (in general) are not agreeing. They are playing the very powerful sex card to stop men in their tracks and it's working, it's working too well. They are dipping into the men's wardrobe and taking whatever they choose. What would happen if we protested? Male masculinity is undervalued and much more fragile than anyone gives credit (because that would be gay) and consequently men are simping at every turn while equally trying look manly. It's an impossible situation.

I believe when you say women won’t take a MIS as a partner the actual problem you’re referring to isn’t the skirt but women perceiving MIS as too feminine, ie. women want a man that is more masculine than they are. Obviously that issue would solve if a MIS would be an ordinary sight. At the moment this also creates an another problem since young women are dressing more and more “masculine” so that men find it difficult to compete with them and are therefore unable to bring out their masculinity through clothing. Someone has to break the cycle and ironically enough I’ve come to the conclusion that wearing a skirt as a man might do the trick since going against the grain takes a lot of balls and courage is generally considered a masculine trait And yes, I know it might still look too feminine to a lot of people and then we’re at the beginning again. The other option would be for women to go backwards in their dressing habits but that also seems quite unlikely.

[crfriend]

I believe when you say women won’t take a MIS as a partner the actual problem you’re referring to isn’t the skirt but women perceiving MIS as too feminine, ie. women want a man that is more masculine than they are. Obviously that issue would solve if a MIS would be an ordinary sight. At the moment this also creates an another problem since young women are dressing more and more “masculine” so that men find it difficult to compete with them and are therefore unable to bring out their masculinity through clothing.

You make a good point in this regard, and one way to think about this is to decouple adornment (for what we clothe ourselves in is precisely that) from behaviour. Traditional masculinity is a collection of behaviours, not a particular style of costume.

Women have definitely gotten very "butch" in recent decades -- to the point where a lot of guys aren't really homosexual enough to be particularly attracted (I know I'm not) to the "new woman" -- and women have even coopted the notion of machismo to a point where they're behaving as badly as the guys. It's not a pretty situation, and it's left traditional guys no wiggle-room whatsoever. With nowhere to go, we find ourselves rudderless.

The other option would be for women to go backwards in their dressing habits but that also seems quite unlikely.

That's unthinkable at this point in time.

[Barleymower]

It's not all down to women and lack of acceptance. I was told of an incident today and I knew the reply instantly.
My wife's mum was making comments about our sons skirts until she had to tell her to stop. Enter grandad with a few defending comments for the boys dress sense.
"Why don't you try a skirt" she said
He just said "No"
Regaling the story to me and I knew instantly what happened. Two years ago she would have got the same response from me.
Much as i loved skirts and wanted one, if anyone said to me in front of anyone I would have said the "no" as well. The thought of suddenly wearing women clothes in front of everyone would be terrifying and humiliating at the same time.
I wear skirts now all the time, like falling off a log but I know the feeling that being confronted with the prospect evokes to the uninitiated.

[Ozdelights]

Enter grandad with a few defending comments for the boys dress sense.
"Why don't you try a skirt" she said
He just said "No"

As he has every right to say. We are on about freedom of choice for everyone. But of course being put on the spot is difficult, even if he may want to try a skirt.

[Grok]

Women have definitely gotten very "butch" in recent decades -- to the point where a lot of guys aren't really homosexual enough to be particularly attracted (I know I'm not) to the "new woman" -- and women have even coopted the notion of machismo to a point where they're behaving as badly as the guys. It's not a pretty situation, and it's left traditional guys no wiggle-room whatsoever. With nowhere to go, we find ourselves rudderless.

Or, to rephrase, many men are too straight to take an interest in the "new women."

[Grok]

Don't remember the name...somebody commented about something his wife said...she accepted his skirt because it reminded her of shorts.

Will that be the key to gaining acceptance among women in general, and young women in particular? The garment resembles shorts in appearance, even though it lacks that inseam?

[STEVIE]

Stevie that 3% figure just isn't true in a real sense. Another way of phrasing that question is "what do you put first, your sex life or your clothes?" Your straight forward attitude should not be an issue. If we live in a world where distorting the truth is right then the world must change. Don't lose your candour.

HI BM, I spent too long hiding so many aspects of myself that I have no intentions of ever being anything less than open about myself.
However, you also caused me to have another thought about that 3%.
I still treat statistics with healthy scepticism but that 3% translates to around one million "cross dressing" guys in the UK and I'd reckon on a higher figure.
Now, when I was in the same stage, it was an expedient to allow me to be out and about, dressed as I chose.
To paraphrase Rivegauche, I was a gender tourist but not a happy one. More like being in a very uncomfortable disguise.
The paradox forced on us by society is simple, skirt=female=look female to wear one and that is the destructive fallacy.
Of that million or so guys, some percentage still operate under the myth of having to pass as a female.
Remove the gender aspect of clothes and I wonder what effect that would have on the 3%.
Won't happen anytime soon but I bet it would drop and the MIS figure would rise accordingly.
Cross dressers may affect MIS a lot more than some folk would wish to admit.
Steve.

[Faldaguy]

Stevie that 3% figure just isn't true in a real sense. Another way of phrasing that question is "what do you put first, your sex life or your clothes?" Your straight forward attitude should not be an issue. If we live in a world where distorting the truth is right then the world must change. Don't lose your candour.

HI BM, I spent too long hiding so many aspects of myself that I have no intentions of ever being anything less than open about myself.
However, you also caused me to have another thought about that 3%.
I still treat statistics with healthy scepticism but that 3% translates to around one million "cross dressing" guys in the UK and I'd reckon on a higher figure.
Now, when I was in the same stage, it was an expedient to allow me to be out and about, dressed as I chose.
To paraphrase Rivegauche, I was a gender tourist but not a happy one. More like being in a very uncomfortable disguise.
The paradox forced on us by society is simple, skirt=female=look female to wear one and that is the destructive fallacy.
Of that million or so guys, some percentage still operate under the myth of having to pass as a female.
Remove the gender aspect of clothes and I wonder what effect that would have on the 3%.
Won't happen anytime soon but I bet it would drop and the MIS figure would rise accordingly.
Cross dressers may affect MIS a lot more than some folk would wish to admit.
Steve.

And I suspect that a number of Transwomen may not have chosen to go the full route had they felt free to express their feminine side by wearing 'female' clothing as men. (I'll probably catch heck for this comment, it is not meant to question anyone's choice in the matter -- but I do know a couple trans folk who have wondered if life would not have been easier if they just bought a new wardrobe and some nail polish!)

I also suspect there are a few men who are just seeking attention, sometimes in negative ways, that would find a skirt solves their hankering without breaching deicer barriers.
Maybe we can start a new counseling specialty: "SKIRT THERAPY" for a multitude of male problems!

[STEVIE]

I'll probably catch heck for this comment, it is not meant to question anyone's choice in the matter

Faldaguy, that question of choice, or rather, the lack of it is posed by society continually.
What is more, the answer, typically negative, is also imposed ad nauseum.
I still maintain, non conformity may be easily tolerated but it is not so widely accepted as supposed.
For the first time in my whole decade of permanent skirting, on Tuesday, I had an encounter with a kindred spirit.
I had a completely random with a twenty something young man who was wearing a dress and as a male too.
Professional etiquette prevented too much discussion but I made sure he was aware that we shared a common aspect.
A hope for the future, a cause for optimism and maybe a true sign of progress.
However much I wish that boy well, I cannot help but suspect he has a hard road ahead of him.
Probably not much easier than mine was fifty years ago, damnably lonesome!
"Skirted Counselling" is available here, free and gratis, the celebs and much vaunted social media influencers have never seemed to achieve so much.
Steve.

[zjo]

Don't remember the name...somebody commented about something his wife said...she accepted his skirt because it reminded her of shorts.

Will that be the key to gaining acceptance among women in general, and young women in particular? The garment resembles shorts in appearance, even though it lacks that inseam?

I’ve been thinking about this viewpoint ever since May. Back then I was at my girlfriends apartment and went out for a smoke. There was a guy there already smoking and he was wearing a skirt, or so though. It took me almost a minute to realize that the garment is question was a pair of shorts because they were really spacious, the inseam was 3/4 way to the knees and the leg part was like less than an inch long. They actually looked very comfortable but unfortunately I didn’t ask were he got them from. Clothes like this can make the transition to acceptance easier because removing the inseam makes only a small change in the appearance.

[Barleymower]

Stevie that 3% figure just isn't true in a real sense. Another way of phrasing that question is "what do you put first, your sex life or your clothes?" Your straight forward attitude should not be an issue. If we live in a world where distorting the truth is right then the world must change. Don't lose your candour.

HI BM, I spent too long hiding so many aspects of myself that I have no intentions of ever being anything less than open about myself.
However, you also caused me to have another thought about that 3%.
I still treat statistics with healthy scepticism but that 3% translates to around one million "cross dressing" guys in the UK and I'd reckon on a higher figure.
Now, when I was in the same stage, it was an expedient to allow me to be out and about, dressed as I chose.
To paraphrase Rivegauche, I was a gender tourist but not a happy one. More like being in a very uncomfortable disguise.
The paradox forced on us by society is simple, skirt=female=look female to wear one and that is the destructive fallacy.
Of that million or so guys, some percentage still operate under the myth of having to pass as a female.
Remove the gender aspect of clothes and I wonder what effect that would have on the 3%.
Won't happen anytime soon but I bet it would drop and the MIS figure would rise accordingly.
Cross dressers may affect MIS a lot more than some folk would wish to admit.
Steve.

Stevie I am in no doubt that when checking the figures you are right but pull back the curtain and I see something else. I have long since thought that men and women have the same desires in this respect. And in the same respect there are men and women who don't share the same desire for something soft and fluffy. I am convinced that without prior knowledge of the outside world and without external intervention that if children were left alone with the dress up box boys and girls would be wearing skirts and dresses in equal amounts. I cannot see in that situation that 97% girls would be wearing dresses and only 3% of boys or even 10% boys for that matter. I think it exists in all men.

The question is why only 3% are forced out into the open to be counted?

[Barleymower]

And I suspect that a number of Transwomen may not have chosen to go the full route had they felt free to express their feminine side by wearing 'female' clothing as men. (I'll probably catch heck for this comment, it is not meant to question anyone's choice in the matter -- but I do know a couple trans folk who have wondered if life would not have been easier if they just bought a new wardrobe and some nail polish!)

I also suspect there are a few men who are just seeking attention, sometimes in negative ways, that would find a skirt solves their hankering without breaching deicer barriers.
Maybe we can start a new counseling specialty: "SKIRT THERAPY" for a multitude of male problems!

Faldaguy I don't think you are wrong. There many people who don't think problems through. They act first, think later. I played with faceapp and saw what I could have been. I was tempted to go for it. The feminine side of me was banging the drum for me to make the changes. Luckily for me I ran into the brick wall of non acceptance from my wife and I had to reconsider. When thinking it over and I asked myself what I really wanted, what I was gaining and what I was losing. Had I gone through with it, I probably, no certainly would have found myself regretting my decision. I like being feminine when the mood takes me but I also like being a man. I certainly have no desire to have relations with another man.
I like the idea of a counseling zone within the cafe. Iwpidl like to contribute if I could, I would also like more meet ups.

[Grok]

I’ve been thinking about this viewpoint ever since May. Back then I was at my girlfriends apartment and went out for a smoke. There was a guy there already smoking and he was wearing a skirt, or so though. It took me almost a minute to realize that the garment is question was a pair of shorts because they were really spacious, the inseam was 3/4 way to the knees and the leg part was like less than an inch long. They actually looked very comfortable but unfortunately I didn’t ask were he got them from. Clothes like this can make the transition to acceptance easier because removing the inseam makes only a small change in the appearance.

I think there is a latent acceptance of men in robes. (Think of a monk's habit, for example, or the robe worn by a judge). If I were to bet on which garment will be the next to get traction, I would bet on robes.