Skirt Cafe is an on-line community dedicated to exploring, promoting and advocating skirts and kilts as a fashion choice for men, formerly known as men in skirts. We do this in the context of men's fashion freedom --- an expansion of choices beyond those commonly available for men to include kilts, skirts and other garments. We recognize a diversity of styles our members feel comfortable wearing, and do not exclude any potential choices. Continuing dialog on gender is encouraged in the context of fashion freedom for men. See here for more details.
Discussion of fashion elements and looks that are traditionally considered somewhat "femme" but are presented in a masculine context. This is NOT about transvestism or crossdressing.
phathack wrote: ↑Mon Jul 03, 2023 10:37 pm
For me, a Cross-Dresser is one who tries to appear as a woman.
I think it's more subtle than that: a cross-dresser is someone who wears clothes they consider belonging to the opposite gender. Some try to pass as the opposite gender, but many do not. See the /r/crossdressing survey results page 8, significant minority is not interested in passing.
The difference with us (IMO) is that we don't consider the clothing to belong to the opposite gender, it's our clothes, we bought them. So the difference is entirely in the state of mind, and crucially, there is no way for an outside observer to distinguish between a us and cross-dressers.
What say we stop using that term as well as it's a one-way street to a clinical diagnosis -- which can only apply to men. Since "transvestism" and "crossdressing" are precisely the same thing (the former is a tarted-up and Latinized transliteration of the latter it makes sense to walk away from both and be done with.
I noted with some hilarity there, "a significant minority" (i.e. those of us making style choices for the sake of style) remain a "significant minority". Not good.
The difference with us (IMO) is that we don't consider the clothing to belong to the opposite gender, it's our clothes, we bought them. So the difference is entirely in the state of mind, and crucially, there is no way for an outside observer to distinguish between a us and cross-dressers.
That's not what the DSM still says, and until that damned thing gets fixed we're stuck. The interim answer is to ditch the terms -- both.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
phathack wrote: ↑Mon Jul 03, 2023 10:37 pm
For me, a Cross-Dresser is one who tries to appear as a woman.
A cross dresser almost always takes on a feminine name. Even though I have a feminine appearance thanks to the estrogen I have been on for 12 years, I still regard myself as a man as I have XY chromosomes. Hence I NEVER use a feminine name, even for crossdressers.com or femulate.org. One thing that is definitely not feminine: my voice that borders on basso profundo. In my current church choir I have sung Db2 below the bass staff.
JohnH wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 2:29 am One thing that is definitely not feminine: my voice that borders on basso profundo. In my current church choir I have sung Db2 below the bass staff.
John
For me an F is comfortable and an Eb just possible with a good warm up, deep breath and a prayer
phathack wrote: ↑Mon Jul 03, 2023 10:37 pm
For me, a Cross-Dresser is one who tries to appear as a woman.
A cross dresser almost always takes on a feminine name. Even though I have a feminine appearance thanks to the estrogen I have been on for 12 years, I still regard myself as a man as I have XY chromosomes. Hence I NEVER use a feminine name, even for crossdressers.com or femulate.org. One thing that is definitely not feminine: my voice that borders on basso profundo. In my current church choir I have sung Db2 below the bass staff.
John
In my case the good thing for me is that I already have a feminine name which is fine although sometimes I wish that I had been named "Nancy" because I really love the name. Also it is important to acknowledge that by society's standards we are all crossdressers here. I hate the "T" word, but accept that I am a feminine crossdresser.
JohnH wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 2:29 am One thing that is definitely not feminine: my voice that borders on basso profundo. In my current church choir I have sung Db2 below the bass staff.
John
For me an F is comfortable and an Eb just possible with a good warm up, deep breath and a prayer
I once had to have a vodka on the way to sing Rachmaninov in a concert, so that I had a better chance of getting some sound on the bottom Db.
When I urged people to never use the word "transvestite" ever again, I had overlooked one acceptable usage- and that is from the 1975 film The Rocky Horror Picture Show. The character Frank-N-Furter, played by Tim Curry, sings "I'm just a sweet transvestite, from transexual Transylvania A-uh."
Just like our struggles to wear skirts or dresses as freely as women the use of words like transvestite, tranny or any other in any language is not ours to command.
Sure we can agree that they are not acceptable here, not use them ourselves but society is outside our remit.
Try to educate, get militant and vocal, we shall see change or maybe our grandchildren will.
Steve.
STEVIE wrote: ↑Sat Jul 15, 2023 6:55 amJust like our struggles to wear skirts or dresses as freely as women the use of words like transvestite, tranny or any other in any language is not ours to command.
Strictly speaking, Steve is entirely correct here -- we do not call the shots when it comes to the use of language. However, we can set a good example by avoiding certain terms and speaking up when we hear them used by others -- and not being shrill or whiny when speaking out. When speaking out, we should speak softly, and with care and diligence.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
JohnH wrote: ↑Sun Jul 02, 2023 8:01 pm
Perhaps instead of using terms such as "transvestite" (Latin form) or "crossdresser" (English form) the term "freestyler" needs to be used and the use needs to be encouraged.
John
That is the term I use, and, for me, I find it to be fitting.
I don't want to LOOK like a woman, I just want to DRESS like a woman.
JohnH wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 2:29 am One thing that is definitely not feminine: my voice that borders on basso profundo. In my current church choir I have sung Db2 below the bass staff.
For me an F is comfortable and an Eb just possible with a good warm up, deep breath and a prayer
When I get up in the morning with my vocal cords relaxed I can hit G1 below the bass staff (3 ledger lines).
JohnH wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 2:29 am One thing that is definitely not feminine: my voice that borders on basso profundo. In my current church choir I have sung Db2 below the bass staff.
For me an F is comfortable and an Eb just possible with a good warm up, deep breath and a prayer
When I get up in the morning with my vocal cords relaxed I can hit G1 below the bass staff (3 ledger lines).
Many will respond with "But pants are designed for women", "Shirts are designed for women"...
Women wearing pants did not occur, in America, until Katharine Hepburn wore them off a movie set
back in the 1940s-50s. During WW2, when women replaced men in the factories, the women wore
pants during their work hours but had to change back into dresses/skirts when leaving the factories.
Also back in the 1940's-50's women put dresses on infant boys. Also women also subject to arrest up to including 1970 for wearing pants.
Dresses where considered as being unisex clothing for infants up to including 1950's. Also during that same time periods clergy was claiming men can't wear dresses and women wear pants, while he had a new infant son in a pink dress.
