The Beskirted Man

[Grok]

Dust, I find it hard to think of a scenario comparable to those war time factory jobs. Yes, it is possible to have a skirt like garments for work, such as utility kilts. But that is a niche thing, and of course men already have the option of pants.

With out a similar impetus, I suspect that it will be considerably longer for MIS to gain much traction, compared to pants for women. Consider...more options for women appeared in the after math of WWI, and further options appeared in the after math of WWII. Before, the socially acceptable option was Bloomers for athletic wear, and the tolerated option (due to a skirt like silhouette) were culottes for athletic wear. Otherwise, women in pants were rarely seen, and were subject to arrest.

As a kid I saw the transition in which females largely switched from skirts/dresses to pants. Which really took off in the early 1970s, when I was in high school.

Experimentation with the early Bloomer rigs began in 1850. Subtract 1850 from 1970 and we get 120 years. I have to wonder...if the world wars had been avoided, would womens options now be limited to a few designs for athletics, and a design or two for work?

[Grok]

To answer Dust, we are in the first generation, during a very early period of experimentation.

During the first half of the 21st century, I see designs having traction in two different categories:

1. Designs that are deemed socially acceptable. (Today that is kilting).

2. Designs that are considered tolerable for a man to wear.

Category 1 is mainstream (as Bloomers became for women).

Category 2 would be borderline (as culottes were for women).

[crfriend]

Actually it's more than one generation for the guys. The "pioneers" were in the 1960s to the 1990s. We're the second generation as "early adopters" in the 2000s to late 2020s. After that, perhaps -- just perhaps -- there might be mainstream acceptance, but I am not entirely confident of that given the societal changes we're living through at the moment.

[Grok]

Thank you for pointing that out, crfriend. That hints at the time scale-the 1960s ended nearly 54 years ago. Come to think of it...wasn't there a thread about an experimental skirt back in the '60s?

[STEVIE]

Hi Grok,
This is a photo I posted a while back.
The guy is Michael Fish, a BBC weatherman of some renown, now deceased.
It was definitely from the 60s and he is wearing a skirt by any standard and it isn't a "kilt" either.
Good old Auntie Beeb would never have tolerated that in those days, I'm sure.
His fame in latter days would never have indicated a fashion rebel either.
Steve.

[Grok]

Oh my gosh, a fashion rebel!

Thanks for the image, Stevie.

[Grok]

I think the closest we have compared to using bloomers under a skirt was the skirt / shorts made by Etalon:

viewtopic.php?p=243013

I've come around a bit to skirt over pants a little bit - in that I think the look can be a safe way to wear a skirt for a guy who's a bit unsure. It's unnecessary, but is distinct enough it's not just straight up wearing a skirt like a woman does. I think if it became popular enough, more adventurous guys would skip the pants.

Technology Adoption Curve. Listed in order of appearance:

1. Innovators.

2. Early Adopters

3. Early Majority

4. Late Majority

5. Laggards


As for Early Adopters of MIS, I think the individuals tend to share two traits:

1. Mavericks in terms of personal expression

2. With a particularly strong interest in MIS

I suspect this combination is quite uncommon, which would explain why we are so thin on the ground. This may also explain a tendency to skip halfway house rigs and go directly to skirting.

I think that to apply the technology categories to MIS would be insufficient. Because of the distortion caused by the Taboo, we might end up with an additional category-Late Adopters. Men who are interested in MIS, but who remain in the closet due to the Taboo. Who may need a halfway house type rig to get started (outside the privacy of their homes).

[STEVIE]

I think that to apply the technology categories to MIS would be insufficient. Because of the distortion caused by the Taboo, we might end up with an additional category-Late Adopters. Men who are interested in MIS, but who remain in the closet due to the Taboo. Who may need a halfway house type rig to get started (outside the privacy of their homes).

Grok, the "MIS Taboo" is strong enough that we will never know how many die prematurely because of it.
The traction for women in trousers was caused by wartime production and economic expediency which then led to it becoming the rule, rather than the exception.
There will never be a catalyst for men in skirts like that and mere fashion, with all the influencer leverage that can be mustered will take a hell of a time to equal that.
Another aspect is that masculine traits in girls are seen as positive while the opposite is never very likely to be applied to boys. In this, the balance for MIS is heavily weighted against us.
As for a "half-way" rig, the stigma reaches insidiously everywhere, bricks and mortar are nothing, "home" doesn't always offer the help and comfort one might expect.
Pessimistic, yes it is and the lack of men who will openly wear skirts as men merely underlines the reality of the situation.
However, if the ones who can stop trying then there will be no hope for change of any form.
I won't give up because if I do I will have wasted around 80% of my time on this barren rock.
Steve

[Coder]

Pessimistic, yes it is and the lack of men who will openly wear skirts as men merely underlines the reality of the situation.
However, if the ones who can stop trying then there will be no hope for change of any form.
I won't give up because if I do I will have wasted around 80% of my time on this barren rock.
Steve

I fight with myself over this all the time - so long as I can wear what I want, what does it matter? Yet, I want it to be normal at some level, to erase all stigma. So for that, skirts have to be something men just wear normally. I could probably learn to not care -> and frankly I'm on my way to that mindset.

[Barleymower]

...a ray of hope
My daughter whatsapp'd this to me:
https://www.tiktok.com/@wisdm8/video/73 ... 2715912737

I asked her if girls these days would go for a boy like him? She said rough girls mostly like rough boys but there are exceptions. Some might like him.
Rough boys don't wear skirts. So no change there.
He would appeal to alternative girls. They would not have a problem with his clothes.

[Coder]

...a ray of hope
My daughter whatsapp'd this to me:
https://www.tiktok.com/@wisdm8/video/73 ... 2715912737

I asked her if girls these days would go for a boy like him? She said rough girls mostly like rough boys but there are exceptions. Some might like him.
Rough boys don't wear skirts. So no change there.
He would appeal to alternative girls. They would not have a problem with his clothes.

Even though some of those looks were... quite impractical, I think some of the attitude he gave off is what we need to see more of - a IDGAF unapologetic adoption of stuff he wants to wear. How much of this is for TikTok, though?

[Grok]

I could probably learn to not care -> and frankly I'm on my way to that mindset.

Me too. At this point I am 67 years old, never married, no off spring. Actually, I gave up on women twenty years ago; at the time I figured that I was getting a bit old to start raising a family, and there were no prospects at the time.

So I don't feel pressure to conform from a girlfriend or wife, or from family. And I disrespect a Taboo that I view as stupid. Yeah, I am definitely moving into the IDGAF camp.

[Dust]

There will never be a catalyst for men in skirts like that and mere fashion, with all the influencer leverage that can be mustered will take a hell of a time to equal that.
Another aspect is that masculine traits in girls are seen as positive while the opposite is never very likely to be applied to boys. In this, the balance for MIS is heavily weighted against us.

I would argue that back in the day, even terms like "tomboy," which is now neutral or positive, were insults. Masculinity in a girl was not seen as positive by large parts of society at one time. Now masculinity, even in men, is under attack. While this leads to pushback, it also may lead to more young men stepping away from the rigid masculinity of their fathers. While I hate to say it, the "[rad-fem hate-speech redacted]" nonsense may have a silver lining.

If nothing else, the sexes and what it means to be male or female is under discussion in the larger society right now. That may lead to serious thoughts about why certain things are reserved for one or the other. I'm feeling oddly optimistic about this right now.

We have already seen a revival of kilts. Male celebrities in skirts keep popping up. Society is aware of the issue. And quite frankly, I have really conservative friends who are completely okay with me in a kilt or even a fairly plain a-line. The world is close to being ready, in my view.

The men-in-skirts break-through moment could end up being a reaction against the trans movement. It could be an anti-war protest. It could be the men's rights movement breaking into the mainstream. Who knows? But I don't think the catalyst moment will look like the war factories employing women. It will be different than that, and will likely take even us here by surprise.

[Grok]

Catalysts for change might conceivably include:

1. AI girl friends. (Or as I think of them, electronic geishas).

2. In vitro gametogenesis (IVG). If this can work for a human male, allowing him to reproduce without the genetic contribution of a woman.

3. Or simply, a large number of older men who are now single, and not looking.

[Grok]

4. Generational change? I don't know the attitudes of today's young men and women, not really.