What it takes to be a man in a skirt

[crfriend]

This was originally posted in Coder's "Pics and Looks" thread, but I think it may deserve a slightly wider audience who may not understand the new phenomenon of Men In Skirts:

I think the main reason for [most folks not understanding things] is that what we're doing as Men In Skirts correlates to no known social model and therefore the observer has nothing familiar to latch onto and is thus forced to (incorrectly) classify us as something we're not. Face it, skirts/dresses in the "traditional" model are classified as "feminine" because as far as most are aware always have been. In the pop-sci world of trans-* the clothes become a signifier (or a flag) of what one is trying to become or be. In either of those cases we're pushing boundaries because there is no model for us (we're wildcards), thus we get dropped into the homosexual or trans-* boxes (the latter likely to be wrong, and the former flat wrong). In short, "observer bias".

No one likes to have to continually "prove one's self", but in this case where there is no well-understood "box" into which we can be placed, we are forced to "do it the hard way" quite often. That takes significant effort, it takes guts, it takes stamina, and it requires a very thick skin. Not everybody has that mettle in him. And it's going to be the "little guys" who are going to win this thing -- if it can be won, that is -- not the attention-grabbing "celeb", the wise-guy jock, or the rather insane fashion designer. In short, it'll be guys like us. The gauntlet has been thrown. Can we rise to the challenge?

[Faldaguy]

Carl, I concur it will be the "little guys" that will, if it ever happens, bring MIS over the the hurdles -- BUT, I do think the celebs and jocks help break the ice, we just have to keep the heat up a bit!

Today I had to take my father to a medical appointment, a Doc we have both seen often enough I've come to know the receptionist fairly well. Today she was telling me she "REALLY liked my skirts..." and when I responded in part "They are comfortable, and I'm trying to get men out of their rut of regimented conformity", she replied "they'll never make it." We still have a long trail up a high mountain.

[Ozdelights]

I concur with a lot of the above but suggest we need a 'name/title'. To help our case and reduce 'confusion' we need clear public face. Most people now can identify LGBTIQ groups and understand what Lesbian is, Gay is, etc.

We need a simple 'title' that we can promote which the general public will associate as a MAN who can wear clothes other than traditional male fashion without necessarily being part of LGBTIQ. This 'name/title' can then be used in news/advocacy especially articles of celebrities wearing skirts/dresses to help educate and increase acceptance and understanding that men can wear whatever they like. MIS, Men In Skirts is very descriptive but is it brief/catchy/easily recognisable? Would a journalist use it in an article, especially the headline?

Not well thought through but out there for comment.
Barry

[STEVIE]

Hi folks I guess that I can only respond thus.https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-hera ... 9539707496.
The best that I can do.
Steve.

[Ozdelights]

Hi folks I guess that I can only respond thus.https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-hera ... 9539707496.
The best that I can do.
Steve.

And you do it so well.
Barry

[Midas]

I think it’s not as bad as that. I can’t say I’ve encountered any hostility at all and most people react to me in a manner unchanged by the fact that I’m either in a dress or skirt (usually a dress). I don’t believe anyone has challenged my masculinity, which would be in contradiction to my body language, which defies anyone to take issue.

Once you’ve been out a few times in a brightly coloured dress you can defy the world. Dress wearing in public is empowering, much more so than a dark skirt that might not even be noticed. Kilts don’t count as they are viewed as Scottish trousers (personal view).

There is a long way to go; we are in the vanguard and it’s a war of attrition. I heard a radio 4 obituary about Mary Quant a week or two ago, which referred to her having been asked to leave restaurants in the early 1960s because se wore trousers. We should take encouragement from that.

[jamie001]

The problem is that society needs to put everyone is a nice little box that identifies what they think we are. This behavior will never change.

Why does it matter if we get labeled as trans or gender nonconforming? By definition, we are gender nonconforming because we are wearing a skirt or a dress. Why don't we just accept the label of "gender nonconforming" instead of telling everyone that we are trying to make the skirt a man's garment? Besides it is much more fun to be a gender outlaw!

[crfriend]

The problem is that society needs to put everyone is a nice little box that identifies what they think we are. This behavior will never change.

That's highly likely, so the answer is to conjure another box.

By definition, we are gender nonconforming because we are wearing a skirt or a dress.

Repeatedly calling someone something after being repeatedly corrected is nothing short of rude, and in person can result in a broken nose. Stop doing it. Simply because we're breaking one "tradition" does not indicate we're in the alphabet-soup box.

Besides it is much more fun to be a gender outlaw!

It may be for some, but for others it's immaterial.

[Fred in Skirts]

The problem is that society needs to put everyone is a nice little box that identifies what they think we are. This behavior will never change.

But the behavior can change and someday it will. Maybe not today but it will!!

Why does it matter if we get labeled as trans or gender nonconforming? By definition, we are gender nonconforming because we are wearing a skirt or a dress. Why don't we just accept the label of "gender nonconforming" instead of telling everyone that we are trying to make the skirt a man's garment? Besides it is much more fun to be a gender outlaw!

It matters because I am not a part of the alphabet soup that people call the queer world these days.
And yes I am trying to make the skirt a man's garment, just as trousers are now a woman's garment.
I really don't know where you are coming from to consider it to be fun to be a gender outlaw.

Fred a MAN in a SKIRT.

[jamie001]

CR and Fred,

The goal of my post is not to offend anyone. Please accept my apology if I have been offensive in repeating that we should accept the "gender nonconforming" label. I understand that everyone has different thoughts and feeling and that some folks view the "gender nonconforming" category as being derogatory or insulting.

INHO, I believe that the gender nonconforming label is a big step-up when compared to how we were view in the past. Ten to fifteen years ago, teenagers yelled the insult "F****t" at me from car windows as I walked down the street wearing a feminine skirt, pantyhose, and 3 inch heels. There was only one category at that time, and if you wore skirts, you were labeled as a member of that category.

Today we have trans, non-binary, and gender nonconforming. These least abrasive of these terms is gender nonconforming because it implies nothing about sexuality or whether or not we are transgendered. By definition, gender nonconforming simply implies that we wear clothing that is inconsistent with gender stereotypes and/or that we act in ways that are inconsistent with gender stereotypes. Gender nonconforming is quickly being accepted by society with the exception of redneck southern America. I am sorry that this term offends folks and will refrain from bringing it up in future threads.

In regards to having fun being a "gender outlaw", my meaning here is that life was drab and boring wearing the stereotypical male clothing that is prescribed by society. It is much more fun, expressive, comfortable, and colorful to wear women's clothing, shoes, and makeup.

As for men wearing skirts as male clothing, my opinion is that celebrities wearing skirts will not cause the average Joe on the street to follow-suit (or skirt) because they live in a world where their masculinity is so very fragile and must be proven on a daily basis. Celebrities don't have to prove their masculinity, but the average Joe is taught that you must prove you masculinity on a daily basis. I certainly don't believe that men wearing skirts without being labeled gender nonconforming will happen in our lifetimes. The only way that I see men wearing skirts being accepted is if it is done in a masculine context. In other words, skirts of drab colors, heavy fabrics, and just plain boring designs that mimic men's drab suits. If that happens, count me out! I will continue to wear women's skirts.

Cheers,

Jamie

[Coder]

By definition, gender nonconforming simply implies that we wear clothing that is inconsistent with gender stereotypes and/or that we act in ways that are inconsistent with gender stereotypes. Gender nonconforming is quickly being accepted by society with the exception of redneck southern America. I am sorry that this term offends folks and will refrain from bringing it up in future threads.

I don't really like the term, but for me it's an acceptable description, better than other terms that have been used in the past. But I only would use it if someone was having trouble accepting man in a skirt at first. I don't get too bent out of shape either way.

In regards to having fun being a "gender outlaw", my meaning here is that life was drab and boring wearing the stereotypical male clothing that is prescribed by society. It is much more fun, expressive, comfortable, and colorful to wear women's clothing, shoes, and makeup.

That's fine - but at the same time it's not the only way, nor are drab boring colors. Really, the right way is just for everyone to be themselves, not force one way or another on other people, and give suggestions when asked. Just as drab colors aren't for you, feminine styles - or calling them feminine - isn't for others. It's a matter of tone and understanding.

I'll also say - you don't have to be a "gender" outlaw to wear colorful colors - perhaps it means something gender related to you, but to others it just means someone who is a "style outlaw" or a "rebel".

[phathack]

The goal of my post is not to offend anyone. Please accept my apology if I have been offensive in repeating that we should accept the "gender nonconforming" label. I understand that everyone has different thoughts and feelings and that some folks view the "gender nonconforming" category as being derogatory or insulting.

In many ways I an in fact gender nonconforming In that I wear

• Dresses
• Skirts
• Panty Hose
• Women's Shoes
• Leggins
• Yoga Shorts
• All sorts of "Women's" tops.
• Womens Pants & Jeans
• Women's Underwear
• Paint My Nails
• I've removed all body hair
• I'm Balding and wear a full beard.

I don't think I've not worn men's clothing in over a decade now.

So am I Crossdressing or just gender nonconforming, I'll go with the latter since there is no way at 6'4" 275 with a Beard would never be considered anything feminine looking even if I'm wearing a skirt and a Lace top and Boots with 3" Heels.

[Barleymower]

This group is about (tell me if I'm wrong) wearing skirts and dresses without being labelled. Men here want to wear skirts in the same way women wear trousers. Men here want all men in all walks of life going about their daily business in skirts of their own choice.
It seems like there are men here who have other agenda around their own struggles that they want included. I fully support anyone's personal choices and I'm very keen to discuss and support others in their needs but those needs are not what the group is focused on.

[Barleymower]

The goal of my post is not to offend anyone. Please accept my apology if I have been offensive in repeating that we should accept the "gender nonconforming" label. I understand that everyone has different thoughts and feelings and that some folks view the "gender nonconforming" category as being derogatory or insulting.

In many ways I an in fact gender nonconforming In that I wear

• Dresses
• Skirts
• Panty Hose
• Women's Shoes
• Leggins
• Yoga Shorts
• All sorts of "Women's" tops.
• Womens Pants & Jeans
• Women's Underwear
• Paint My Nails
• I've removed all body hair
• I'm Balding and wear a full beard.

I don't think I've not worn men's clothing in over a decade now.

So am I Crossdressing or just gender nonconforming, I'll go with the latter since there is no way at 6'4" 275 with a Beard would never be considered anything feminine looking even if I'm wearing a skirt and a Lace top and Boots with 3" Heels.

Jamie, if gender nonconfoming is what you head and heart are telling you; then you are gender nonconforming. Your clothes can be an outward expression of yourself. Or you might just like bright colors and soft fabric. Only you know..

[Coder]

This group is about (tell me if I'm wrong) wearing skirts and dresses without being labelled. Men here want to wear skirts in the same way women wear trousers. Men here want all men in all walks of life going about their daily business in skirts of their own choice.
It seems like there are men here who have other agenda around their own struggles that they want included. I fully support anyone's personal choices and I'm very keen to discuss and support others in their needs but those needs are not what the group is focused on.

I think you stated it pretty well. One adjustment - but I'm guessing this was your intent - "Men here want all men in all walks of life going about their daily business in skirts of their own choice if they so choose.". I think we are about expanding choice - not restricting or setting standards.