Intellectual Takeout: When Men Say ‘Yes’ to the Dress

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
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Re: Intellectual Takeout: When Men Say ‘Yes’ to the Dress

Post by ScotL »

crfriend wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 3:34 pm
The important takeaway from this is that neither "masculinity" nor "femininity" is superior. They stand on their own as equals, and both are necessary for us to be mentally healthy. To claim otherwise is to expose profound ignorance and misunderstanding.
I’m still having difficulty coming up with a modern day definition of masculinity and femininity.

Personally, I’d strike the last sentence of your post that I quoted. Just my opinion but it comes off as condescending and dismisses healthy debate. And maybe I think this because to me appropriate modern day definitions of what is a masculine and feminine trait is lacking. So to suggest “profound ignorance and misunderstanding” occurs if one dismisses one side or the other in a world where I do not believe an adequate definition of either exists, seems like a circular argument. Just my thoughts. Not attacking you, please take no offense. Just trying to debate what are the helpful modern day definitions of masculinity and femininity in todays world
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Re: Intellectual Takeout: When Men Say ‘Yes’ to the Dress

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I think that in a utopian society, the terms “masculine” and “feminine” do not even exist. To perpetuate their use also perpetuates stereotypes and places societal limitations based on one’s sex. Physically we are assigned as male or female at birth for the obvious reason of procreation. There’s no getting around that, but who we are in our soul is much more complicated than physiology. To strike “masculine” and “feminine” and variations there of from language would be incredibly liberating for both sexes. Let the descriptive words associated with their definitions stand on their own without being assigned to one particular sex.

While personally I am not a fan of the non-binary movement solely because of the confusion and awkwardness it can cause, I do understand it’s roots. Society loves labels, whether they are correct or not. Non-binary status strives to essentially eliminate feminine and masculine descriptions for those subscribing to it.

If we lived in a non-labeling world, the non-binary status and perhaps some degrees of transgenderism would no longer be needed.

Unfortunately this hypothetical utopia will likely never exist.
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Re: Intellectual Takeout: When Men Say ‘Yes’ to the Dress

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Offkilter69 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 1:03 pm I think that in a utopian society, the terms “masculine” and “feminine” do not even exist.
Is that even possible, though? Hormones are a powerful influence on how people act/behave - there are biological factors involved (whether natural or introduced) and they do effect thought processes. Is it fair to say that certain hormones make people act certain ways, and we've come to classify those ways as masculine and feminine? How would this utopian society reconcile this, and label these behaviors?

I'm genuinely curious - it feels that no matter how much we try to un-bias ourselves, we (humans) always fall into the trap of bias. So even if we remove all labels, there would be some primal urge (fight or flight?) that feels very genetic - or evolutionary driven - that will keep us from this ideal. If we developed over hundreds of thousands of years to behave a certain way, that utopian society is a long way off. That doesn't mean we can't try to change other's thoughts, but it is an uphill battle, and to some degree the current political atmosphere is only strengthening those labels, not eliminating them.
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Re: Intellectual Takeout: When Men Say ‘Yes’ to the Dress

Post by moonshadow »

Coder wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 1:27 pm I think that in a utopian society, the terms “masculine” and “feminine” do not even exist.
Is that even possible, though? Hormones are a powerful influence on how people act/behave - there are biological factors involved
Influence? Probably so... but powerful? Maybe in some extreme cases, but a focused mind can control most emotional states.

Wild beast also have hormones too, as well as plants, and many have a male/female sex, but do they have gender? Do they have gender roles?

If so, it's high time for Rufus to get a job and start pulling his weight like a proper man.

There is some credence in the belief that inanimate objects, plants, and animals can have masculine and/or feminine gender, I've seen it written about in occultic text, but I don't think these beliefs are rooted in measurable science, but rather spiritual philosophy, works of magick, etc.
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Re: Intellectual Takeout: When Men Say ‘Yes’ to the Dress

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moonshadow wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 2:40 pm
Coder wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 1:27 pm I think that in a utopian society, the terms “masculine” and “feminine” do not even exist.
Is that even possible, though? Hormones are a powerful influence on how people act/behave - there are biological factors involved
Influence? Probably so... but powerful? Maybe in some extreme cases, but a focused mind can control most emotional states.
I'm not really speaking to the individual level. There will always be outliers - but when you look at the whole of humanity, millions of individuals there are trends. I do think biological processes shape behavior, maybe hormones aren't the only deciding factor. That isn't to say we can't challenge these things, but I think the reason it's so difficult to reach these utopian goals is because of how people are wired. All of this is speculation on my part, though I do base it off things I've read anecdotally so it's not totally uninformed (just mildly).
moonshadow wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 2:40 pm Wild beast also have hormones too, as well as plants, and many have a male/female sex, but do they have gender? Do they have gender roles?
But we don't consider them to have the same level of intelligence as us. Are they smart? Clever? Sure - maybe more so that some people we know :D but can they self-reflect? Do they have consciousness at the same level we do when it comes to gender? Or for them is it instinct and strict biology? I really couldn't say - I'm barely qualified to talk on my own species, let alone animals. The other problem is we often associate human ideals when looking at animals - you see squirrels running around chasing one another. Are they having fun? Are they playing? Do they have a concept of play? Presumably they don't have a system of money, so they may not have a great distinction between work/play.
moonshadow wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 2:40 pm If so, it's high time for Rufus to get a job and start pulling his weight like a proper man.
As he ought to!


But when I speak of feminine/masculine, I'm not really talking about gender - I really am trying to understand how the two align more with biology and behaviors seen across large numbers of people.

Unfortunately, the longer I live the more and more I just consider us all biological computers.
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Re: Intellectual Takeout: When Men Say ‘Yes’ to the Dress

Post by Offkilter69 »

There will always be fundamental differences between the sexes—it is the way we’re wired, but that wiring is not always absolute or universal. How we are wired is a complex discussion for another thread. One stereotypical sex trait: males tend to be more aggressive than females, but for the outliers in either sex why can’t they just be labeled (there’s that word again- I typed it without thinking about it- l’ll amend that to ‘described’) as such for the traits they have, not merely as (more) masculine or feminine?

Until recent human history, physical sex could not be changed, but inner emotional and mental sex has always been fluid, more so in some individuals than others. Society is finally STARTING to come to terms with that notion. How far we can go remains to be seen.
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Re: Intellectual Takeout: When Men Say ‘Yes’ to the Dress

Post by jamie001 »

Offkilter69 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 1:03 pm I think that in a utopian society, the terms “masculine” and “feminine” do not even exist. To perpetuate their use also perpetuates stereotypes and places societal limitations based on one’s sex. Physically we are assigned as male or female at birth for the obvious reason of procreation. There’s no getting around that, but who we are in our soul is much more complicated than physiology. To strike “masculine” and “feminine” and variations there of from language would be incredibly liberating for both sexes. Let the descriptive words associated with their definitions stand on their own without being assigned to one particular sex.

While personally I am not a fan of the non-binary movement solely because of the confusion and awkwardness it can cause, I do understand it’s roots. Society loves labels, whether they are correct or not. Non-binary status strives to essentially eliminate feminine and masculine descriptions for those subscribing to it.

If we lived in a non-labeling world, the non-binary status and perhaps some degrees of transgenderism would no longer be needed.

Unfortunately this hypothetical utopia will likely never exist.
I agree with much of the concepts that are presented in this post. We do not need the concepts of masculine and feline. We only need the concept of biological sex for procreation. I would like to see the words masculine and feminine disappear from this website! Until that happens, and also happens in society, I will maintain my gender nonconforming label which simply means that I do not accept and conform to the masculine/feminine stereotypical dogma that have been established by society..

Cheers,

Jamie
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Re: Intellectual Takeout: When Men Say ‘Yes’ to the Dress

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Coder wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 2:55 pm ... you see squirrels running around chasing one another. Are they having fun? Are they playing? Do they have a concept of play?
Yes, they most definitely do.  I have seen a tame squirrel 'winding up' a dog with a game of "You try to catch me".  The dog finished up going frantic.  If you doubt their intelligence, try keeping them off a bird feeder and see how good their problem-solving skills are.
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Re: Intellectual Takeout: When Men Say ‘Yes’ to the Dress

Post by crfriend »

jamie001 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 4:49 pmWe do not need the concepts of masculine and feline.
Hate men and cats?? :twisted:
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Re: Intellectual Takeout: When Men Say ‘Yes’ to the Dress

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jamie001 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 4:49 pm I would like to see the words masculine and feminine disappear from this website! Until that happens, and also happens in society, I will maintain my gender nonconforming label which simply means that I do not accept and conform to the masculine/feminine stereotypical dogma that have been established by society..
Jamie,
Nobody here will ever condemn you for not conforming to societal norms, that is certainly your right.
However, there is no definitive answer here, there are merely levels of opinion and belief.
What we all need is to accept is that we live in a world large enough to actually accommodate the kaleidoscope of humanity.
One thing though making masculine/feminine taboo in the cafe would not make the slightest bit of difference.
If we really had that kind of influence, tinkering with words wouldn't be the primary item on the agenda.
For myself, I am simply me and I wear skirts and dresses.
I really do not need to add a label to that.
I am really not concerned what "society" thinks or calls it.
Steve.
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Re: Intellectual Takeout: When Men Say ‘Yes’ to the Dress

Post by Barleymower »

STEVIE wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 4:42 am
jamie001 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 4:49 pm I would like to see the words masculine and feminine disappear from this website! Until that happens, and also happens in society, I will maintain my gender nonconforming label which simply means that I do not accept and conform to the masculine/feminine stereotypical dogma that have been established by society..
Jamie,
Nobody here will ever condemn you for not conforming to societal norms, that is certainly your right.
However, there is no definitive answer here, there are merely levels of opinion and belief.
What we all need is to accept is that we live in a world large enough to actually accommodate the kaleidoscope of humanity.
One thing though making masculine/feminine taboo in the cafe would not make the slightest bit of difference.
If we really had that kind of influence, tinkering with words wouldn't be the primary item on the agenda.
For myself, I am simply me and I wear skirts and dresses.
I really do not need to add a label to that.
I am really not concerned what "society" thinks or calls it.
Steve.
Masculine and feminine won't disappear from here or anywhere else. They exist.
The trouble comes when people don't understand what is in front of them, they want to change it, get rid of it, get back to normal.
In another world where there less to go around anything that is different possibly gets left behind. Unless it can find its place or somebody is prepared to fight enough to keep it.
What's changed? If we want society to accept this we have to fight for it. We have to go out there and make it normal and defie anyone who would stop us.
Steve is right on the money, just be yourself.
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Re: Intellectual Takeout: When Men Say ‘Yes’ to the Dress

Post by TheRod »

An article from reviewing Josh Hawley's Manhood:
https://wapo.st/3BHGu3z

(link should be valid for 14 days)
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Re: Intellectual Takeout: When Men Say ‘Yes’ to the Dress

Post by STEVIE »

"What we need is not the armor of manhood, the ideal of the warrior or builder or priest, but the courage to face each other in all our glorious particularity, without teachers or templates."

In short, to be our own true selves.
I am on record as saying that I knew this by age ten but took forty more years to actually achieve it.
Here's another point, wear whatever you wish, it doesn't actually matter.
The world will rotate, the sun rise and you won't live or die any sooner or later.
Even more succinctly, it doesn't actually matter.
Steve.
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Re: Intellectual Takeout: When Men Say ‘Yes’ to the Dress

Post by Charlie »

jamie001 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 4:49 pm I would like to see the words masculine and feminine disappear from this website! Until that happens, and also happens in society, I will maintain my gender nonconforming label which simply means that I do not accept and conform to the masculine/feminine stereotypical dogma that have been established by society..
I agree whole heartedly.
This is happening in the contra dance world, and possibly in other forms of folk dance. Many contra dances now use the terms 'larks & robins' instead of 'men & women', but this is only a change of label. A development of this is 'positional calling' where gender is not mentioned at all.
At the Bristol contras I regularly dance with men and women in their 20s (I'm 75) and we always agree which role we're going to dance (left or right, where left was the man's role and right was the woman's role). This is great for me, because I'd rather dance on the right, having danced the man's role (left) for many years. I always wear a skirt of course, and lately there's been another guy (in his 20s) who has also taken to a skirt.
Charlie
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