Must Read Alaska: Alaska Airlines will allow male flight attendants to wear skirts and beards

[crfriend]

The trouble I face, I think many MIS face is that there are millions of skirts out there and they are nearly all pretty; feminine if you like. In order for it ro be regarded as masculine it needs to be plain or kilt like.

The bald face of the matter is that skirts are generally more flattering to the wearer than trousers or, worse, "spray-on pants". This means they can work on anybody be they male, female, or whatever the wearer identifies as.

I do not assign gender to a particular garment, I select it from the closet according to the prevailing weather, the day's whim, and what strikes my fancy at the moment. Thus, I deploy very plain skirts and very fancy/flouncy skirts fairly randomly and nobody has ever given me more than a dollop of grief over the matter. I do get some occasional ribbing on other matters, my nails being one of the more recent sources of amusement, but in general it's all in very good nature and quite jocular.

If need be, find female advisors. They are invaluable, and they do not need to be intimates. I have several, and when I ask questions I listen. The clear polish I'd been using on my nails was at the end of its useful life as a cosmetic (and now joins the tool-kit as thread-locking compound), so I asked one of them what colour might look good (as I know that clear works). The advice came back quite cogently that vivid hues (e.g. hard red/scarlet) might not work well (1) with my complexion and (2) given my normal wardrobe, thus something in the "peach" range was suggested and countered, "lilac, perhaps?" and received a nod -- and thus my nails at the moment are a lavender colour (the closest I could get) and which hilariously matches the palazzo pants I wore today. It looks good, and I'll call this a win.

So, cast aside preconceptions of "masculine" and "feminine" as those will lead you back into drab oblivion -- and none of us want to be there.

[moonshadow]

The advice came back quite cogently that vivid hues (e.g. hard red/scarlet) might not work well (1) with my complexion and (2) given my normal wardrobe, thus something in the "peach" range was suggested and countered, "lilac, perhaps?"

I find the lighter colors and pastels look nice.

[Barleymower]

The trouble I face, I think many MIS face is that there are millions of skirts out there and they are nearly all pretty; feminine if you like. In order for it ro be regarded as masculine it needs to be plain or kilt like.

The bald face of the matter is that skirts are generally more flattering to the wearer than trousers or, worse, "spray-on pants". This means they can work on anybody be they male, female, or whatever the wearer identifies as.

I do not assign gender to a particular garment, I select it from the closet according to the prevailing weather, the day's whim, and what strikes my fancy at the moment. Thus, I deploy very plain skirts and very fancy/flouncy skirts fairly randomly and nobody has ever given me more than a dollop of grief over the matter. I do get some occasional ribbing on other matters, my nails being one of the more recent sources of amusement, but in general it's all in very good nature and quite jocular.

If need be, find female advisors. They are invaluable, and they do not need to be intimates. I have several, and when I ask questions I listen. The clear polish I'd been using on my nails was at the end of its useful life as a cosmetic (and now joins the tool-kit as thread-locking compound), so I asked one of them what colour might look good (as I know that clear works). The advice came back quite cogently that vivid hues (e.g. hard red/scarlet) might not work well (1) with my complexion and (2) given my normal wardrobe, thus something in the "peach" range was suggested and countered, "lilac, perhaps?" and received a nod -- and thus my nails at the moment are a lavender colour (the closest I could get) and which hilariously matches the palazzo pants I wore today. It looks good, and I'll call this a win.

So, cast aside preconceptions of "masculine" and "feminine" as those will lead you back into drab oblivion -- and none of want to be there.

My own strategy is to mix the feminine (perceived) article ie the skirt (which in my case, i admit feminine) with a more masculine style eg shirt, jumper, shoes, bald head, beardy chin. That way I'm hoping to ovoid the oblivion you are talking about. By making the skirt the centre piece and toning down everything else.

I feel like im locking myself out of lots of fine clothes and nail colours but thats the choice I've made. I'm going for a softer but unmistakably masculine look. I don't know if it's possible or am I deluding myself.

[Myopic Bookworm]

My own strategy is to mix the feminine (perceived) article ie the skirt (which in my case, i admit feminine) with a more masculine style eg shirt, jumper, shoes, bald head, beardy chin. That way I'm hoping to ovoid the oblivion you are talking about. By making the skirt the centre piece and toning down everything else.

I feel like im locking myself out of lots of fine clothes and nail colours but thats the choice I've made. I'm going for a softer but unmistakably masculine look. I don't know if it's possible or am I deluding myself.

I think that's basically my approach too: I wear a skirt and coloured nails, but usually with a man's shirt and waistcoat, or a man's overcoat or jacket. I wear shoes and boots from the ladies' side, but they are mostly black, of a kind that appeals to the girl who is trying to look less feminine. (Facebook's algorithm, monitoring my shopping, has now cast me as a "geek girl"!) And I always tied my hair back when wearing a skirt, and wore it loose only with trousers, until last weekend when I dared to wear it down while sporting full Highland gear, as I reckoned I could get away with the wild Scotsman look.

I received a useful batch of part-used nail varnish from a neighbour, but I gave all the reds and pinks to a lady friend, and kept the grey, dark blue, silver, and purple ones.

I have long complained of men's footwear being only black or brown, so it's slightly ironic that my footwear has stayed mainly in that groove, with the odd pair of dark blue or dark green. I have a rather bloke-ish-looking friend who has just bought a pair of startling turquoise shoes, so maybe I should branch out! (I saw an ad for a US company that make custom boots and shoes in a range of dazzling hippy-style patterns, but I worry about paying shipping and customs for expensive footwear that might not fit well....)

[familyman34]

... but reclassifies the referent as being of undetermined gender. This last substitution is unfamiliar, as people are accustomed to making correct assumptions about other people's gender, but logically it is not ungrammatical.

With regard to "they"; this is a plural pronoun. Once you mess around with it, then you have to contrive the rest of the grammar around it, including related pronouns like (themselves), determiners (their) and even verbs (they wash their hair rather than he washes his hair). We traditionally make such an allowance where a person's sex is unknown, but usually only for very brief interactions, e.g. "A patron can collect their keys from reception". That does not, however, entitle people to dictate to others that they want to be referred to in the plural and we have to fit the rest of our grammar around their preference.

My father (born 1901, died 1983) was so old-fashioned in his speech that he usually referred to a human infant of unclear gender as a "brat" with consequent "it" pronouns; if/when he was corrected by the infant's parent, he would then of course refer to the child as a "girl" or "boy" as appropriate, with "she" and "he" pronouns. Likewise with pet animals of indeterminate gender.
And it's still almost universal to do so when the gender doesn't matter, even when the vocabulary item is clearly gendered; who, other than the owner, would take care to use "she" or "he" when referring to particular animal in a group of unfamiliar dogs (i.e. dogs and bitches) rather than merely saying "it"?

Of course, most of these problems arise because the very Anglo-centric (English language-centred) position, as expressed here in SC. For example, the problem doesn't arise in Bahasa Indonesia as it is a language largely without gender markers, and is also one in which pronouns are less common - the referent person's name/description is usually repeated rather than saying "he" or "she".

On the other hand, many Romance languages such as French or Spanish are far more constrained by the assigning of grammatical gender to particular vocabulary items; in the recent past, in French one would normally refer to another person, male or female, as "une/la personne", followed by feminine pronouns and adjectives, but today it is more common to say "un/l'individu", with masculine pronouns and adjectives, thereby avoiding the need to use feminine gender markers for males. And there has also been an uncomfortable introduction into French of new feminine versions of many job and professional descriptors - e.g. le facteur / la factrice (postman/postwoman) - into which the Académie Française has waded.

A web-site on the topic for mono-lingual English speakers is: https://frenchtogether.com/gender-neutral/

A source of amusement for French people is how English-speaking tourists generally translate "duck eggs" as "œufs de canard" instead of "œufs de canne", as "un canard" is the drake while the duck is "une canne"! Conversely, English-speaking military personnel smile when learning that a "sentry", male or female, in the French armed forces is "une sentinelle" with consequent feminine pronouns and adjectives.

[Coder]

I saw an ad for a US company that make custom boots and shoes in a range of dazzling hippy-style patterns, but I worry about paying shipping and customs for expensive footwear that might not fit well....

What company? If you hadn't written "custom" I'd have assumed John Fluevog.

[Midas]

I think the point has been missed to some extent. Masculinity or otherwise lies with the person not the clothing. I mostly wear a dress as well as other ‘female’ items, but do not expect anyone to view me as feminine because my demeanour and attitude say ‘man’. If anyone gets confused that’s their problem.

I don’t think we either need or want to be identified as part of the trans thing, which will do us no good.

Neither do I wish to be considered a cross dresser, which I interpret as someone who wants to do wigs and makeup to try and ‘pass’ as a woman, which isn’t really possible.

Drag queens are a part of show business rather than real life.

We are here to go out into the world wearing skirts and dresses while just being ourselves.

[Myopic Bookworm]

I saw an ad for a US company that make custom boots and shoes in a range of dazzling hippy-style patterns, but I worry about paying shipping and customs for expensive footwear that might not fit well....

What company? If you hadn't written "custom" I'd have assumed John Fluevog.

https://yeswevibe.com

[moonshadow]

I don’t think we either need or want to be identified as part of the trans thing, which will do us no good.

I realize most members here do not fall on the transgender spectrum, my gripe with some of the comments is rooted in an observation that somehow I get the sense that many here believe we set the "gold standard" much like other cisgender people when it comes to all things "gender".

It's as though cisgender people and cisgender men that wear skirts are on a higher level. Maybe they are, but it just doesn't feel like it's up for us to say individually that we somehow "got it right" and they are "wrong".

There have been some pretty harsh pejoratives spoken regarding trans and nonbinary people on many threads here lately, and while I respect that most people here are NOT trans or nonbinary, I don't think we need to be kicking dirt in their face either by calling their paths stupid delusional nonsense.

If that's the general sentiment here, then woe unto us. I'm just saying... we ain't exactly the "darling of society" ourselves.

[moonshadow]

I just think we ought to be careful what group we get in bed with. These anit-trans people have got not use for us either for the exact same reason.

Many members here live in "liberal" areas, others are old enough to be retired and own their homes, others live overseas.

I'm one of the few that still have to earn a living among some very hostile people when it comes to others like us not staying in their lane.

I'm not a transgender woman, and I'm not "nonbinary" under the common understanding of the term (I go about it a different way under different sets of ideals), and yet despite all of that, simply for the crime of wearing a skirt I've...

Had people try to get me fired

Had people try to get me evicted from my home

Lost family and friends

Had people accuse me of crimes such as shoplifting (profiling me because I was different)

Laughed at often

Called homophobic and transphobic names

And I suspect I've even had a few businesses passive aggressively give me a raw deal over it (hoping I won't make a scene, but just won't come back)

Some of you have never had these issues... good for you. As for me, I sleep with one eye open, and I gladly stand with my trans sisters in their moment of need because their struggle is my struggle... a struggle for freedom.

[ScotL]

It's as though cisgender people and cisgender men that wear skirts are on a higher level. Maybe they are, but it just doesn't feel like it's up for us to say individually that we somehow "got it right" and they are "wrong".

I can only speak for myself as a cisgender man who has been surprised at how comfortable skirts are and has been on the journey of understanding myself better as an individual.

I don’t think I’m on a higher level. I see people all on the same level. One cannot place a worth on a person. This reminds me of the BP oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico. BP was charged with paying retribution for the loss of wildlife. So as they got out their checkbook, they asked, what’s the cost of a pelican? The answer? A pelican.

As a cisgender man I do not associate with the trans movement because I’d be an imposter. It’s not that I find anything wrong with their movement, I don’t, it’s just not me. I am not Trans. If I tried to suggest my struggles with wanting to wear skirts is like a trans individuals strife, I’d be an idiot. My interest, if it can even be stated that way, is not to be lumped in with the trans movement cause it’s not the same. The issues are remarkably different and in my opinion, I’d be offended if I was trans if cisgendered men who want to wear skirts thought we were similar groups/struggles.

[Stu]

I just think we ought to be careful what group we get in bed with. These anit-trans people have got not use for us either for the exact same reason.

At one time, I didn't believe there was such a thing as an "anti-trans" person. I have since discovered I was wrong about that. There are such people around and their attitudes are mainly borne or ignorance. They can be extremely unpleasant and they should be challenged if and when they exhibit their prejudices.

However, I would offer three suggestions to our trans friends. First, they should not look for transphobia where it doesn't actually exist. If someone has never met a person who is obviously trans before, the first time they do can come as a bit of a culture shock - they might be unsure how they should react. If the trans person just acts naturally and is friendly, the individual will soon become comfortable and it won't be an issue. If they are unintentionally misgendered - ignore it, or make a joke of it. Exude the attitude: I am cool with you and I know you are going to be cool, with me, so we are going to get on brilliantly! Second, if they encounter mildly inappropriate responses to their trans status, like gentle ribbing etc, then start from the position of assuming the person is just unsure how to react and is embarrassed by their own uncertainty and give them a bit of space. If it goes beyond that, then of course either call it out, or walk away. There are some people with whom one simply cannot reason, so treat their hostility and prejudice like an unwanted gift - this is your issue, not mine. The last bit of advice would be to say - just give us a clue. I had a trans undergraduate student a few years ago - female-to-male. I always referred to him with masculine terms and addressed him in ways that I would normally talk to a guy, including a friendly slap on the back when he passed his grad essay and saying: "Well done, mate!" That was easy for me and it came naturally because he dressed in male clothes, had a male hairstyle and used a male name. No pronoun badges needed: he's a guy - end of.

[jamie001]

In an ideal world maybe. However you can't cover you ears and la la la the trans issue away. MIS are linked by society to the trans group, therefore you must have an opinion / voice or you will be pigeonholed.

Personally I'm not into pronouns but i stand stand by the trans community and I support their aims. They are good people.

Here's James - sit by me

If MIS are linked by society to the trans group, as you say, then we must break that link.

I have nothing against trans people, but their messages are, in some ways, in conflict with ours. For example, trans women wear skirts as part of the signification system to show the world that they have embraced womanhood (and rejected masculinity). For them - skirts = femininity.

We, on the other hand, are trying to put out the message that skirts should cease to be considered as female garb, but should be available to both sexes as trousers are - and can even accentuate masculinity.

We need to accept that there are some of us that are male and are more feminine that masculine per societies stereotypical pigeonholing definitions. By wearing a skirt and other feminine attire, I am expressing my feminine side. There is no reason to attempt to make skirts a unisex garment. It is fine for skirts to remain a feminine garment. Society needs to accept and respect a male person's right to express femininity through the clothing that they wear.

[jamie001]

Break the link? A laudible ambition but how are you going to achieve it?

Isn't that the whole point of this site? It says at the top...

"Skirt Cafe is an on-line community dedicated to exploring, promoting and advocating skirts and kilts as a fashion choice for men, formerly known as men in skirts. We do this in the context of men's fashion freedom --- an expansion of choices beyond those commonly available for men to include kilts, skirts and other garments."

My argument is that, while of course we can and should discuss issues related to gender, I don't think we should, in the context of achieving the "men's fashion freedom", tether our cause to the wholly different cause of trans rights.

We can't argue that skirts should be re-categorised as suitable for both sexes - making women look feminine while making men look masculine - while, at the same time, championing the idea that skirt-wearing is inherently feminine. If we do that, then we can abandon any ideas of the mainstream fashion industry producing and marketing lines in affordable skirts for men and boys. The best we would the ever hope to see would be brief, periodic fads in which top end designers put the on catwalks periodically and fashion houses provided an extremely limited range for the odd celebrity (wanting to attract attention from the paparazzi) at prices way beyond our reach. And then we are back to Square 1.

If skirts were to make me look masculine, I don't think that I would want to wear them anymore. That is not the look that I am attempting to achieve. Society needs to accept that fact that feminine males are real and always have existed. That is the real problem!! Anything else is a compromise at best!

[jamie001]

My own strategy is to mix the feminine (perceived) article ie the skirt (which in my case, i admit feminine) with a more masculine style eg shirt, jumper, shoes, bald head, beardy chin. That way I'm hoping to ovoid the oblivion you are talking about. By making the skirt the centre piece and toning down everything else.

I feel like im locking myself out of lots of fine clothes and nail colours but thats the choice I've made. I'm going for a softer but unmistakably masculine look. I don't know if it's possible or am I deluding myself.

I think that's basically my approach too: I wear a skirt and coloured nails, but usually with a man's shirt and waistcoat, or a man's overcoat or jacket. I wear shoes and boots from the ladies' side, but they are mostly black, of a kind that appeals to the girl who is trying to look less feminine. (Facebook's algorithm, monitoring my shopping, has now cast me as a "geek girl"!) And I always tied my hair back when wearing a skirt, and wore it loose only with trousers, until last weekend when I dared to wear it down while sporting full Highland gear, as I reckoned I could get away with the wild Scotsman look.

I received a useful batch of part-used nail varnish from a neighbour, but I gave all the reds and pinks to a lady friend, and kept the grey, dark blue, silver, and purple ones.

I have long complained of men's footwear being only black or brown, so it's slightly ironic that my footwear has stayed mainly in that groove, with the odd pair of dark blue or dark green. I have a rather bloke-ish-looking friend who has just bought a pair of startling turquoise shoes, so maybe I should branch out! (I saw an ad for a US company that make custom boots and shoes in a range of dazzling hippy-style patterns, but I worry about paying shipping and customs for expensive footwear that might not fit well....)

WE will never achieve fashion freedom if we keep colors as being feminine and masculine as you are doing when you have away all of your pink and red nail polish. Color has no gender! It is all a marketing lie that has been fed to us since we will children. I love red and pink nail polish and that is all that I wear because the other colors are too drab and boring for me. As men, we need to be allowed to express our femininity, just as women express masculinity in many different ways through fashion and action.