What is traditional masculinity?

[greenboots]

Not exactly MIS, but touching on a topic often discussed on
SC.

https://theconversation.com/traditional ... why-202472

It’s interesting that the author attributes much of the macho side of masculinity to the imperial impulse. Whilst there are positive aspects, such as the resilience needed to penetrate remote places such as jungles or the Wild West to trade or establish a home in the wilderness, it easily overflows into subjugating the “natives” and the natural world. I suspect that once started on this road, it is not easy to turn back.

[Midas]

I think the article is a complete load of tosh.

[ScotL]

Not exactly MIS, but touching on a topic often discussed on
SC.

https://theconversation.com/traditional ... why-202472

It’s interesting that the author attributes much of the macho side of masculinity to the imperial impulse. Whilst there are positive aspects, such as the resilience needed to penetrate remote places such as jungles or the Wild West to trade or establish a home in the wilderness, it easily overflows into subjugating the “natives” and the natural world. I suspect that once started on this road, it is not easy to turn back.

I think this is a good article but needs to go one step further.

In the article they define traditional masculinity to be traits such as “violence and aggression, emotional restraint, and hunger for power and dominance.”

They argue modern day masculinity should instead include traits of “reliability, stability, physical strength, independence and integrity.”

Traditional femininity was described as “piety, purity, domesticity, and submissiveness.”

More modern femininity traits can be described as “gracefulness, gentleness, empathy, humility, and sensitivity.”

Shouldn’t all humans strive for traits of reliability, stability, physical strength, independence, integrity, gracefulness, gentleness, empathy, humility, and sensitivity?

I would argue neither the term masculinity nor femininity should persist as they just cause trouble.

[rode_kater]

I thought it interesting. The actual title of the article is clearer: Traditional masculinity is a vague, unhelpful term we should abandon – here’s why, that's something I can agree with.

It also helped clarify some things for me, for example:

This kind of binary thinking about traditional and modern masculinities is troubling. It conflates chronological and social progress, sustains division of the world into “the west and the rest” and, as I have pointed out in previous research, popularises the assumption that every country will go through the same stages of development and eventually acquire the same levels of gender equality and sexual liberation as the western world.

Conflating a European understanding of gender and sex with the notion of “progress” and imposing it on the diverse societies of colonised countries was a tactic used by European colonisers.

Some of the comments I see here about masculinity are just way out of my realm of experience, and I'm thinking it's just because traditional masculinity in America means something different from here. That at least makes some sense.

So yeah, lets just drop the term "traditional masculinity" as it's not clear what it means.

[Barleymower]

Looks like the article is picking which traits to call traditional. Where do you need to go to define 'traditional'? The Greeks? The Romans? The advent of Christianity?

[SkirtsDad]

Brilliant and well written article. Nice find greenboots.

[rode_kater]

Looks like the article is picking which traits to call traditional. Where do you need to go to define 'traditional'? The Greeks? The Romans? The advent of Christianity?

No, it's pointing out that there are no such thing as "traditional masculine traits" and that it's not helpful to discuss it that way. Masculinity in the 1800's America was different that 1800's Europe which is different than 1800's China which is different from the Greeks and the Romans. Which one is "traditional"? None, and all of them.

Better off just stop using the term altogether.

[Barleymower]

Looks like the article is picking which traits to call traditional. Where do you need to go to define 'traditional'? The Greeks? The Romans? The advent of Christianity?

No, it's pointing out that there are no such thing as "traditional masculine traits" and that it's not helpful to discuss it that way. Masculinity in the 1800's America was different that 1800's Europe which is different than 1800's China which is different from the Greeks and the Romans. Which one is "traditional"? None, and all of them.

Better off just stop using the term altogether.

Perhaps even let men decide what's masculine for themselves.
The only definition that seems to matter is how women perceive masculinity. Men are racing to conform to increase their chances of finding a mate.

Men must define themselves of forever be controlled by the desires of others. I'm sure the human race would survive such a change. Fat chance.

In the mean time non-conforming Men will be religated to deviants and homosexuals

[FLbreezy]

The only definition that seems to matter is how women perceive masculinity. Men are racing to conform to increase their chances of finding a mate.

I wouldn't want the kind of mate that would expect me to be a blind conformist.

[Barleymower]

The only definition that seems to matter is how women perceive masculinity. Men are racing to conform to increase their chances of finding a mate.

I wouldn't want the kind of mate that would expect me to be a blind conformist.

You and me both FLb. However, look around you. How many non-conformists do you see? None. They, we, are all trooping up and down to the same tune. Ask them and some will admit they are total sheep. Some deluded people will say "not me". Can we really say we are not in that group? In all respects?
It takes a brave man to take a cold, hard look at ourselves and admit that we too are part of the flock.

I have looked at myself and I'm part of the flock. I don't do anything because I don't know how to escape. Escape is easier said than done.

[FLbreezy]

I have looked at myself and I'm part of the flock. I don't do anything because I don't know how to escape. Escape is easier said than done.

It's not quite as dark as all that (I hope). We're ingrained to find safety in our flock for survival, but that doesn't mean we can't be one of the birds pointing us in a better direction. It seems overwhelming and frustrating and depressing sometimes because it never happens as fast as we want it to. Don't let it get you down: take a break, take a breather, look for some good.

[ScotL]

We're ingrained to find safety in our flock for survival, but that doesn't mean we can't be one of the birds pointing us in a better direction. It seems overwhelming and frustrating and depressing sometimes because it never happens as fast as we want it to.
Don't let it get you down: take a break, take a breather, look for some good.

This is some excellent advice. Meant for another but helpful to all. Or, at least to me. Thank you

[Barleymower]

I have looked at myself and I'm part of the flock. I don't do anything because I don't know how to escape. Escape is easier said than done.

It's not quite as dark as all that (I hope). We're ingrained to find safety in our flock for survival, but that doesn't mean we can't be one of the birds pointing us in a better direction. It seems overwhelming and frustrating and depressing sometimes because it never happens as fast as we want it to. Don't let it get you down: take a break, take a breather, look for some good.

FLb sometimes it's unavoidable. That is, dream on or face facts. Let's have a random look at what the tinterweb has to offer googling 'men in skirts' since 2013:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ng-neutral
2014
https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/201 ... s-and-lace
2016
https://www.vogue.com/article/marc-jaco ... womenswear
2017
https://www.dw.com/en/men-in-skirts-how ... a-39328303
2021
https://www.gq.com/story/sober-menswear-skirts

Looks to me that the movement has hit the buffers. If we want change we need to do more together. Alternatively we can argue among ourselves and hope change happens on its own

[Uncle Al]

This may sound a bit 'sappy' but at 72, this is what I think "traditional masculinity" should be.

A man should be(in random order)-

• A protector of the family unit
• A forger- supporting(providing for) the unit
• A guide/teacher for the young
• Showing kindness and courtesy are to be honored
• Showing respect for the Elders of the unit
• The Elders wisdom, gained from experience, should guide you in life
• Willingness to listen to the family unit
• Civility first, aggression should be a last resort, when communicating or problem solving

There are "toxic feminists" through out the world. Do not let people, like Gloria Steinem, rule your life.
Yes, equal treatment for all, but, not oppression of men just because they are men.

Uncle Al

[crfriend]

I fear that many here are falling for the modern PC definition of "masculinity" which is better described as "machismo" -- a sad parody of the real thing.

Men are complex creatures -- like all humans -- and possess a vast range of traits, feelings, and abilities. Those are what makes us human (other than basic genetics and biology). And all humans possess traits in varying degrees and intensities. Recall that the original definition of "masculine" and "feminine" revolved around that range of traits and what ones we most often exhibited "in the wild" by men and women. That's the "traditional" world.

Fast forward into the modern PC world where men are a parody of what they once were, and women now command the entire spectrum -- and well into "machismo" (witness how many monster-truck drivers are (supposedly) women in the modern USA. Everything's become warped, and it's gotten warped into where men are no longer allowed to exhibit emotions anything short of lust and rage. Contemplate for a moment the harm that has caused. Men have been stripped of the ability to grieve alongside partners who have experienced a loss; we have been stripped of the ability to experience wonder at the world around us; we can no longer cry when it becomes absolutely necessary to do so; we cannot grieve properly; all we can do is reach for our automatic weapons and shoot up the nearest gathering place. This is wrong at the most fundamental level! We need to take those other traits back as our birthright.

Enough is enough. It's time to throw off the shackles and chains!

Where do skirts fit in? They dovetail delightfully to the long-suppressed emotions of joy and happiness -- the simple fun of being fanciful and creative. Imagine that. Why should men be boring automatons? Why can't they be beautiful? (I've been called "beautiful" several times, and cherish the memories of those times.) We're not slaves; why do we dress like slaves?