A collection of articles - somewhat related

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
Coder
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A collection of articles - somewhat related

Post by Coder »

I've missed posting a few good MIS-tangent articles (good job guys), but there were a few that popped up that were semi-related in one way or another, but I didn't think warranted their own post. Some are negative, others are positive.


A Mom Responded To The Claim That Target’s Boy Clothes Aren’t Masculine Enough Anymore
https://www.scarymommy.com/parenting/ta ... ontroversy
However, there are some other parents on TikTok who are not too pleased with the updated selection. One user, who is now private on TikTok, went off on Target’s attempt to bring color and variety to all their kid’s clothing, partially by adding rainbows and bright, non-traditional colors to the boys section.

The user claimed that the retail corporation was attempting to make young boys “look like girls” with the bright, fun, colorful shirts they were selling.

Friendly reminder: colors do not have assigned genders (despite what society has told us for eons).
I'm just not on social media (except Reddit) and who knew this was even an issue? But it does remind me there are people out there who lack the ability to critically think about colors. For instance, my mom doesn't like guys wearing pink - even though she admits they do wear it nowadays, and even though I've had "the talk" with her about the origin of pink. It's unfortunate - she can accept that it used to be one way, but refuses to accept it can change back to that prior state, like colors are set in stone.


Consumers want gender-neutral clothing. Some retailers are listening.
https://www.retaildive.com/news/consume ... ng/630862/
Launching a gender-neutral collection filled with one-size, oversized shirts and hoodies is an easy way to bypass more complex questions of size and fit within this category. Yet, putting thought into it can result in a more unique approach.

“[W]e’re seeing the big players enter this space and some of them are doing a good job at it, some are doing a horrible job at it because they’re doing it the old-fashioned way, which is an oversized sweatshirt, sweatpants, sweat shorts,” said Smith.
This feels more like a press release than an article - but I liked some of the things brought up in it, this quote in particular.


Harry Styles is teaching us to find joy through fashion
https://www.sbs.com.au/topics/voices/cu ... gh-fashion
This was not just because she’s a big fan of his music – as many of us are – but because his concerts have become fashion events in their own right. For his legions of fans, it’s a chance to dress however they want and express themselves in the most outlandish of ways. And Harry Styles devotees have been planning their outfits for as long as they’ve had tickets.
I didn't even know dressing up to his events was a thing. I wonder if this impacts how they dress in the real world - do they tone down these outlandish outfits, and add a bit of color to their daily wear?


School U-turns on skirt ban after TikTok protests
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/sc ... r-AA1865g2
Parents criticised the old policy, with one person saying: “It feels like they are punishing girls for wanting to be girls, and that doesn’t feel inclusive.”

Another parent said he “will not be acknowledging your school uniform update and my daughter will continue to wear skirts and other female clothing to school”.
To me, this article horrified me in that, it's clear that the younger generation still sees skirts = woman, which is disappointing. Could be driven somewhat by parents, and maybe this school is conservative. IMHO, the true gender neutral way of dealing with this would be to let anyone wear skirts or shorts... but that probably wasn't what the administration wanted. They were probably tired of dealing with skirts being rolled up.
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Re: A collection of articles - somewhat related

Post by STEVIE »

Hey Coder,
Love this, and it will need a longer think. However, quick reactions.
The clothes for little "boys" arguments will likely rage on for a long time yet.
A comment from Harry Styles (I love that name alone) about being taken to the boys section and it not suiting him resonated very strongly with me.
I'd have loved to have been allowed to cross the aisle as a kid.
As for dressing up to go to gigs, I reckon that may have been a thing for a very long time.
Just from the 70s and 80s, Bowie, The Bay City Rollers, T-rex, Culture Club and The Sex Pistols etc, the fans emulated the acts at concerts and beyond actually.
As for schoolwear, that is a bit of a minefield but a recent conversation I have had set me thinking about that very topic.
That will keep because right now I have to get ready for a date with my lovely optician.
I feel a "purple" moment coming on in that respect. Ha Ha!
Steve.
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Re: A collection of articles - somewhat related

Post by rode_kater »

Coder wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:28 pm A Mom Responded To The Claim That Target’s Boy Clothes Aren’t Masculine Enough Anymore
https://www.scarymommy.com/parenting/ta ... ontroversy
I didn't know the colour thing was an issue people still got excited about, though it's true women's clothing has more colour choice. But one of my favourite t-shirts is fairly bright pink. It was actually chosen by my SO because "it makes me look healthier". Something skin tone something something don't really know, but I like it.

And perhaps, when wearing it, people don't notice the skirt?
Coder wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:28 pm School U-turns on skirt ban after TikTok protests
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/sc ... r-AA1865g2
That one is just dumb. The thought process went something like:

Maybe we should have a gender neutral uniform policy...

Okay

so lets ban skirts and require only trousers

Say what?!?!

This is so illogical I don't know how this managed to get enacted as policy.
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Re: A collection of articles - somewhat related

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rode_kater wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:37 pm Maybe we should have a gender neutral uniform policy...
Okay
so lets ban skirts and require only trousers
However, RK it is in the sense that there is no gender discrimination in the ruling, nobody is allowed to wear a skirt.
Draconian, but the thinking is more along the lines of
"Some girl's skirts are immodestly short so lets just ban them altogether. Bish bash bosh, problem solved, boys won't get any ideas either".
Except that isn't how life works and the policy makers found out the hard way.
Sadly I don't think it will help any boys wishing to be skirted at school though.
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Re: A collection of articles - somewhat related

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Having worked briefly in a school and having to enforce uniform policy, I can actually see what the issue is. By far and away the biggest single source of uniform issues in schools is skirt length - girls simply pushing the boundaries all the time and they end up with their skirts barely covering their underwear. Teachers are having a continual battle and endless arguments with pupils and parents about them and it becomes a serious distraction for staff who would really rather be focusing on educating their charges. This was a problem as far back as when I was at school when trousers simply weren't an option - everyone had to wear skirts - end of (boys and male staff excepted). However, at the particular time I was attending secondary school, the issue was more one of them being too long because the Swinging Sixties had just passed and the "maxi" fad was upon us. My first secondary school required students to wear skirts with knife-pleats and they are not so easy to shorten, so the students would roll them at the waist. My second secondary school had navy A-line skirts. They could be shortened - even I, a teenage lad, knew exactly how to shorten a skirt with blind hemming and pressing because we were taught it in the needlework classes (which I had for three years!). My school responded to students altering their own skirt-lengths by asking parents to use a specific supplier in the town that sold fully-lined skirts. These were heavy, a high-quality wool blend and they even had a couple of hidden pockets where you could keep bus tickets etc - they were a bit like you would expect on a tailored skirt suit and altering those was far more complicated. However, many parents couldn't afford these and their kids ended up at the Co-operative Store which sold Trutex skirts (still sold today).

So what's the answer? One is obviously to ban skirts from schools altogether. Personally, I don't have too much of a problem with that because boys never wear skirts and manage fine with trousers and the first thing most adolescent girls do when they get home from school is put on a pair of jeans or leggings which are forms of trousers. Problem solved for the school. Now from our perspective as MIS, this isn't our argument. If we concede the point that girls should be allowed to wear skirts because they should be allowed to be girls, then we are accepting the premise that skirts are female attire.
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Re: A collection of articles - somewhat related

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Stu wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:01 pm Having worked briefly in a school and having to enforce uniform policy, I can actually see what the issue is. By far and away the biggest single source of uniform issues in schools is skirt length - girls simply pushing the boundaries all the time and they end up with their skirts barely covering their underwear.
At the uniformed high school I went to, there was always an obvious "fight" between some girls and the administration. It never got as bad as you describe, but still I seem to recall students being sent to the principals office or at least complaining about it... but most complied and I never hung out with the rule breakers.
Stu wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:01 pm If we concede the point that girls should be allowed to wear skirts because they should be allowed to be girls, then we are accepting the premise that skirts are female attire.
That was exactly my point with the quote. I think it shows that the younger generation - at least at this school - is stuck in this mindset. I also don't care one way or the other about schools outright banning skirts - it's essentially up to them to decide how their pupils are so attired.
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Re: A collection of articles - somewhat related

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Coder wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:18 pmThat was exactly my point with the quote. I think it shows that the younger generation - at least at this school - is stuck in this mindset. I also don't care one way or the other about schools outright banning skirts - it's essentially up to them to decide how their pupils are so attired.
The problem here is that banning skirts outright smacks of collective punishment which no truly civilised country engages in. Sure, ban the rule-breakers from wearing skirts, since they can't be trusted with them -- but don't tar and feather everyone. However, that thinking is likely too advanced for the sort of little minds that come up with these idiot ideas. Way too often the "Administration" forgets that they are dealing with intelligent human beings that just happen to be a bit smaller than they are.
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Re: A collection of articles - somewhat related

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Coder wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:18 pm
Stu wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:01 pm If we concede the point that girls should be allowed to wear skirts because they should be allowed to be girls, then we are accepting the premise that skirts are female attire.
That was exactly my point with the quote. I think it shows that the younger generation - at least at this school - is stuck in this mindset. I also don't care one way or the other about schools outright banning skirts - it's essentially up to them to decide how their pupils are so attired.
If we’re being honest, if people are asked if a skirt was a garment for men or women, the majority say “women.” When given such a binary set of answers that is.

A few less would answer an open ended question of what gender wears skirts by saying “women.” But in my opinion, most still says skirts are for women.

I think this is just the current reality.

But when we think back to “the good old medieval days” when men did wear skirts and dresses, the change to only wearing trousers did not occur within twenty years.

To me, this is just where we are at. But the fact that this cafe has many posts detailing “skirted outings” where people weren’t ridiculed but were actually occasionally complimented is an awesome sign. Not of the apocalypse as some of the “knuckledraggers” to quote Jeff would think. But a sign things are changing. Never fast enough for us. But it’s changing.

Some people are stuck. And they always will be. but there are others who are slowly understanding or making some sense of the non binary movement and society’s escape from old gender norms. And this allows others to accept all manner of differences.

I work with the younger generation daily. I have a lot of hope from my interactions with them that they are way more accepting than my generation.
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Re: A collection of articles - somewhat related

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Stu wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:01 pm Having worked briefly in a school and having to enforce uniform policy, I can actually see what the issue is. By far and away the biggest single source of uniform issues in schools is skirt length - girls simply pushing the boundaries all the time and they end up with their skirts barely covering their underwear.
So I guess my question is: is the skirt length having an impact on their scholastic achievements? Does wearing a short skirt making it harder to learn? Why are people caring about the length of the skirts anyway?

I mean, I feel this is kind of a "pick your battles" thing. You could make a big deal about it, but I see absolutely no upside for the school at all.

(disclaimer: I've never been at a school with a strict uniform policy)
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Re: A collection of articles - somewhat related

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rode_kater wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:29 pm So I guess my question is: is the skirt length having an impact on their scholastic achievements? Does wearing a short skirt making it harder to learn? Why are people caring about the length of the skirts anyway?

I mean, I feel this is kind of a "pick your battles" thing. You could make a big deal about it, but I see absolutely no upside for the school at all.
I went to Catholic schools, so the policy was aimed at modesty and what was considered "proper". Nowadays, you'll see people complain that by putting the focus on clothes, you are body shaming people (mostly girls/women, because boys/men are not seen in the same light and typically have "looser" requirements). I think there is some validity to concerns over this - it's a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy - if you say it's bad (euphemism) to show a lot of leg, it makes showing a lot of leg bad. However, this is all in reference to our culture - culturally speaking, showing a lot of leg is "bad". That may change as people adapt to less stigmatized forms of clothing oneself, but it is what it is.

There are also discussions that inevitably form in the comments sections between supporters/detractors of skirt length requirements - no need to recap them here. Suffice it to say - it's a difficult issue, and there is no clear cut answer. We imbue so much impact to clothing choices - and we have our own issues just getting MIS accepted (which, frankly, seems to be less and less an issue in some ways) - that without being a parent with a child, there's no real way to comprehend how these policies help or hurt students/families.

IMHO, it's not a real important issue for this board - mainly I was pointing out the "old timey" way of thinking in regards to skirts=woman in the article. It saddened me a bit, frankly.
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Re: A collection of articles - somewhat related

Post by familyman34 »

Coder wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:28 pm I've missed posting a few good MIS-tangent articles (good job guys), but there were a few that popped up that were semi-related in one way or another, but I didn't think warranted their own post. Some are negative, others are positive.
Coder (and others) periodically give us links to articles that may interest us.

Here's one that I can't remember seeing (but apologies to all if you have met it before).

Why Women Can Dress Like Men But Not Vice Versa. https://commonreader.wustl.edu/why-wome ... ice-versa/
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Re: A collection of articles - somewhat related

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familyman34 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 6:36 pmHere's one that I can't remember seeing (but apologies to all if you have met it before).
Why Women Can Dress Like Men But Not Vice Versa. https://commonreader.wustl.edu/why-wome ... ice-versa/
Great article :!:
Thanks :D

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Re: A collection of articles - somewhat related

Post by Coder »

Yes - good catch. Worth creating a new post for as it is directly relevant to the discussions here.
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Re: A collection of articles - somewhat related

Post by crfriend »

The punchline sums it up succinctly: "Retailers are going to have to hang a steak from every manskirt."
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Re: A collection of articles - somewhat related

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This is an awesome quote from that article “Iggy Pop once said, “I’m not ashamed to dress ‘like a woman’ because I don’t think it’s shameful to be a woman.”
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