Relevance.

[STEVIE]

In our "Herald" thread there has been some discussion on the relevance of societal attitude toward trans women reflecting on to men in skirts.
The antics of Eddie/Suzie interest me very little but the comments are telling more about how they are generally viewed.
Sure celebrities get people talking, raise awareness but I really cannot see the benefit in this one.
On the flip side the fallout could be too relevant for comfort.
Ironic too that I have a very similar experience regarding names but mine is older than theirs and with different results too.
However, would the differences matter to a trans exclusionary radical feminist, I surmise not.
Anyway this is what started it, judge for yourself
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment ... 639b&ei=15
Steve

[denimini]

No benefit to me, nor any detriment that I could imagine.
Just one individual doing their thing whilst us other individuals carry on being ourselves. It might help some people who share a similar situation of changing a proper noun or a pronoun.

[Barleymower]

In our "Herald" thread there has been some discussion on the relevance of societal attitude toward trans women reflecting on to men in skirts.
The antics of Eddie/Suzie interest me very little but the comments are telling more about how they are generally viewed.
Sure celebrities get people talking, raise awareness but I really cannot see the benefit in this one.
On the flip side the fallout could be too relevant for comfort.
Ironic too that I have a very similar experience regarding names but mine is older than theirs and with different results too.
However, would the differences matter to a trans exclusionary radical feminist, I surmise not.
Anyway this is what started it, judge for yourself
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment ... 639b&ei=15
Steve

The motives of the Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist elude me. On one extreme they want want to keep female on spaces - female only. The other extreme is the TERF is expressed by hatred of all men. They will inevitably take Eddie (Suzy) Izzard's antics and make a comparisom between Eddie and any man in a skirt.
I would like to do more to promote proper equailty in clothing. If someone can come up with something that could spark a nationwide health debate I would jump right in.

[Coder]

I would like to do more to promote proper equailty in clothing. If someone can come up with something that could spark a nationwide health debate I would jump right in.

I really don't think TERFs matter in the big picture when it comes to clothing equality - in the sense that even if they have negative opinions on a man donning a skirt/dress, insofar as men invading women's spaces, it's not really comparable.

What does matter:

spousal/family - support/acceptance/freedom
workplace policies
societal "acceptance"

The first is where a lot of us run into friction - "the I'm fine with guys wearing skirts, just not my man". Ultimately they have to acknowledge that the freedoms they have to pick and choose their clothes should be universal freedoms, not just relegated to their own worldview. Men are not "dress up ken dolls" (erm, that sounds a bit sexist, but I mean it without any negative intention).

For the workplace, this will be hit or miss. Even if the policies in a workplace allow for men wearing what they want, they will be policed by their fellow man (as in men, not other women) through direct or indirect reasons. It takes a certain amount of courage/IDGAF attitude to get past that.

Society... I don't see it happening in our lifetimes, but slowly people are asking the right questions.

I am afraid, to spark a nationwide debate, it will take and act that is outrageous enough to cut through concerns of inflation, the war in Ukraine, and other world events. It would take a political leader to start wearing skirts, for example. Or a movie that just happens to hit all the right buttons, causing people to really think/debate the issue. Or as simple as a stupid social media challenge or protest (ie, Tennessee) that causes huge swaths of people to wear non-conforming outfits. I don't see the latter happening because it requires an investment of cash, and most people will not dress "normally" but rather they will dress as if they are wearing a costume, and they will go back to their boring uniforms the day after.

[Barleymower]

I really don't think TERFs matter in the big picture when it comes to clothing equality - in the sense that even if they have negative opinions on a man donning a skirt/dress, insofar as men invading women's spaces, it's not really comparable.

I see what you are saying. essentially, they don't matter. However in the grand scheme of things they do matter. Their voice is louder than ours, they are voicing it and it is picked up by the media and people are listening. Women are listening, they may not associate themselves with the radicals but enough to say. Wear a skirt and I'll leave you.

What does matter:

spousal/family - support/acceptance/freedom
workplace policies
societal "acceptance"

The first is where a lot of us run into friction - "the I'm fine with guys wearing skirts, just not my man". Ultimately, they have to acknowledge that the freedoms they have to pick and choose their clothes should be universal freedoms, not just relegated to their own worldview. Men are not "dress up ken dolls" (erm, that sounds a bit sexist, but I mean it without any negative intention).

For the workplace, this will be hit or miss. Even if the policies in a workplace allow for men wearing what they want, they will be policed by their fellow man (as in men, not other women) through direct or indirect reasons. It takes a certain amount of courage/IDGAF attitude to get past that.

I agree, this has a more direct effect on our life, so is felt keenly. I am one of the lucky ones. I have acceptance in my family. Although they accept what I am doing and agree with it, they still are embarrassed by me and think its weird. They admit they are also battling with social conditioning. I'm battling with it too.
Btw I like "Men are not "dress up ken dolls" - I'm going to use that!

Society... I don't see it happening in our lifetimes, but slowly people are asking the right questions.

I am afraid, to spark a nationwide debate, it will take and act that is outrageous enough to cut through concerns of inflation, the war in Ukraine, and other world events. It would take a political leader to start wearing skirts, for example. Or a movie that just happens to hit all the right buttons, causing people to really think/debate the issue. Or as simple as a stupid social media challenge or protest (ie, Tennessee) that causes huge swaths of people to wear non-conforming outfits. I don't see the latter happening because it requires an investment of cash, and most people will not dress "normally" but rather they will dress as if they are wearing a costume, and they will go back to their boring uniforms the day after.

Exactly! Look what AIDS did for the lesbian and gay community. It was a terrible thing and lots of wonderful men were lost. But before AIDS being gay was something to be ashamed of then AIDS came along and the world saw Princess Diana visiting the wards without gloves. They saw how the gay community pulled together and supported each other. It went from the gay plague to gay pride. Noone could help to be affected by Freddie Mercury's bravery

[STEVIE]

spousal/family - support/acceptance/freedom
workplace policies
societal "acceptance"
The first is where a lot of us run into friction - "the I'm fine with guys wearing skirts, just not my man". Ultimately they have to acknowledge that the freedoms they have to pick and choose their clothes should be universal freedoms, not just relegated to their own worldview. Men are not "dress up ken dolls" (erm, that sounds a bit sexist, but I mean it without any negative intention).

I had been thinking about the reach that the article would have and the spousal bit particularly.
It stemmed from a friend's comment, she said, "some men will read it and weep with relief".
Yeah, I hope so but I also would like to think that some women will be affected by it too and examine their own attitudes.
I was actually informed of that very result by a female colleague who is a self confessed lover of men in Kilts.
Only one, but who knows?
Numbers 2 and 3 are more likely to go hand in hand but if we got they would be more likely after success with 1.
All I can add is watch this space but do not hold your breath.
Steve

[ScotL]

Society... I don't see it happening in our lifetimes, but slowly people are asking the right questions.

I dunno about this. Twenty years ago, men wouldn’t wear athletic tights unless you were a nutty runner. Now everyone who apes the NBA players wear them whether they exercise or not.

You’ve been fantastic at wearing a skirt to work. Do you think even ten years ago this would’ve been met with what seems like quiet indifference from your colleagues?

I wore a linen kilt (that’s not the traditional tartan kilt) to a restaurant with my wife and was praised by several women. To me, no way that happens ten years ago. I go to a massage therapist monthly who squawks if I’m not Kilted.

[Coder]

You’ve been fantastic at wearing a skirt to work. Do you think even ten years ago this would’ve been met with what seems like quiet indifference from your colleagues?

Yes I do. I might have gotten actual questions ten years ago, but the town I work in and the residents are known for being… weird. I think people just roll their eyes and say, “well, that’s this town for ya”.

[STEVIE]

OK I have been skirted at work for fully ten years now and mostly ok.
However, in a very large workforce, I am still unique and I have no idea if it will change in my lifetime, I doubt it.
My employer would be highly liberal on this so there are no job/career implications for a skirted male.
Sure, some women positively adore Kilts on a guy.
Thank messrs, Connery, Gibson and The Porridge Oats Guy for that but it has nothing to do with skirts, I promise.
It rather depends on ones age but if it is on the wrong side of fifty, you'd be lucky to see true fashion freedom and choice for men.
That is not pessimism but realism but I would love to be wrong.
Steve.

[Barleymower]

Steve I was looking at skirts the other day, as you do and I noticed that the site I was looking at did not have skirts for women on the front page. Eg trousers, dresses, jogger, accessories, shoes but no skirts. I checked another site and it was the same and other etc. This probably means that skirts are not that popular anymore for women.

On the other hand the number of sites selling mens skirts is increasing everyday.

I know we are not seeing this translated into everyday life but it is growing. Maybe a few more fashion shows and a few more articles and it could take off?

[Coder]

On the other hand the number of sites selling mens skirts is increasing everyday.

I think retailers selling a men's skirt - not a unisex version - is what it needs to catch on. The outfits may be seen as fringe, novelty, or only for club wear... but enough retailers/product out there and people won't be able to ignore it. I think we are far from that level of saturation - we also need a big jeans company - levi's for instance - to make a men's skirt. I also don't think in this economy, we are going to see the level of risky experimentation it needs to take off. Right now most of the men's skirts are sold in high-end boutiques and are costly, though there have been recent skirts aimed at a younger generation and somewhat streetwear inspired.

It's more than just skirt availability, obviously. As we acknowledged in a recent thread, we are reminded on a daily basis the primary iconography of a woman is a stick figure in a skirt (bathroom signs). This is one sign (literally and figuratively, pun intended) that skirt=woman that is ingrained in our very culture, and isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

[Barleymower]

Perhaps we can move from skirt = women
Man in skirt = rebellious.

I could live with that

[STEVIE]

Perhaps we can move from skirt = women
Man in skirt = rebellious.
I could live with that

Ironically BM it already is but only in a truly positive way when the skirt is a "Kilt"
If we ever see men's skirts on the same price points as women's in shops like Marks and Spencer or John Lewis then we will have arrived.
Sites selling skirts for men may be increasing but even in London how easily could you walk into a shop and buy one?
Even if you did have the disposable income that is?
As I said, don't hold your breath.
Steve.

[Barleymower]

No you can't just walk in and buy one. Even if you could, I would not buy one. Like all mens clothes they are bland, probably to encourage men to give them a try. When they take off I hope they bring in colour, more styles just like the women's.

I don't know why the price needs ro be so high, they could sew them alongside the women's cuts?

Here's and interesting one; a womens skirt made from a man's shirt

https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/9696627 ... 31f25a6e7f

[STEVIE]

Here's and interesting one; a womens skirt made from a man's shirt

Not that I'd try it, but even to my eye I can see how it is done.
Incidentally and here is another example of how deeply engrained words are.
Why is it a "women's" skirt made from a "man's" shirt.
Do we know who it actually belonged to and who created the upcycled garment too.
Tongue in cheek really but if you bought it would it be a man's skirt?
Actually I like the idea but not that particular design, just not me.
Here's a thought, it could be done with two garments and create a dress.
That's one for the DIY folks.
Steve