rode_kater wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:54 pm
I know it's off-topic, but just to answer this: a strawman is where someone else's argument is distorted to make it easier to argue against. So in this case it's the millenials that would like cheaper health and education, amongst other things. It's kind of hard to argue against that. So instead a strawman is created:
First, thank you for your respectful response, I took no offense to it, nor your original comment about the "strawman". I honestly wasn't sure what it meant, even after looking it up, it seemed to go over my head. My daughter and I had a brief discussion about it last night where we both tried to pipe out exactly what the phrase means.
Anyway, I'd like for you to take a good hard look at my comment as it was written exactly...
"
...generally shy away from the idea of pure [U.S.S.R] style socialism that many millennials and gen z'ers support. Do I support universal healthcare? Yes, but I don't think the whole damned economy should be under public ownership. "
Note the word "
many". Nowhere in my statement did I paint "millennials and gen z'ers" as predominantly supportive of socialism. I used the word "many". And you, in kind also used the word "many" in your response...
"
No, many millennials do not wants a USSR style socialism. This is just an artifact of the complete misunderstanding of the word socialism in America. Not even China does USSR style socialism."
Now we come down to a place of what I've observed vs what you've observed. By your own quote from Wikipedia, it can be said that as roughly 49% of people between 18 and 40 view capitalism favorably. Which NO, of course doesn't meant that the other 51% support U.S.S.R style socialism, but it should be noted that what the U.S.S.R was was about as close to Marxist socialism as any nation has ever come. Of course no modern industrialized country is 100% this or that, all are a blend of various economic policies, some more socialist/capitalist than the other. In the U.S. there is a surprising amount of "socialism" baked into our system in places where many would not realize it. But by and large, the
root of our system is one of private ownership and a privatized means of production. But even within that privatized ownership, there are still "communal" guidelines that must be followed. For example, for the time being, I live in a mortgaged house, so at the moment, the bank has say on what I can and can not do with my house, granted the bank will probably never check on provided I'm making my payments on time, but it is what it is.
Now when the house is paid for and I get a clear title and deed for it, I now "own" the house. But do I really? Well, technically, and I continue to pay taxes on the real estate despite "owning it". Also there are restrictions and government guidelines on what I can do with the property. Now I'm not trying to sound all "sovereign citizen" like, I understand why these rules exist. It keeps me from turning my home into a landfill, or a used car lot, or a grocery store. These rules are in place for a reason, and many of them have come into place for various reasons over the last 250 years.
Anyway, I digress....
Back to millennials: I think what this comes down to is how many is "many". Because the fact is that there is a percentage of people between 18 and 40 that do support communism (U.S.S.R. style socialism) and there is a percentage in that same age group that don't. So what it comes down to is what percentage would qualify as "many"?
My daughter and I discussed it last night and we concluded that "many" would likely be taken in most context as "
more than a few, but less than most".
So I ran a quick Google search on the number of people 18-40 in the U.S. that support pure socialism. Obviously there would be some margin for error and bias depending on the one doing the polling. But my results ranged anywhere from 20%-45%. For the sake of argument, I ran with the conservative number of 20%. Then I looked up the total population of gen z and gen y, and I came up with a rough number of around 140,000,000. 20% of that number is roughly the same as the population of Texas.
Frankly, once the numbers were crunched, it was "more than a few, less than most"... But in point of fact, many gen z and gen y people I've spoken to do support pure communism (the end game of true socialism, per Carl Marx's manifesto). And no, I'm not talking about just wiping off student loan debt and adopting a Canadian style health system, these kids I've spoken with have done their research, the know what socialism actually is (complete public ownership of the means of production) and yes... they support it.
If I had to throw out a number of the number of folks between 18 and 40 that I've had the chance to actually discuss the matter with, I'd say roughly two out of ten support it... or... 20%, which is roughly the number that corresponds with various polls. There are even "many" self professed communist (yes, they actually used the word to describe their political leanings) right here in Appalachia and in Russell County. To be fair it's likely not 20% of the population, but it's still more than I would have thought.
Also, consider that organized labor (unions) are indeed socialist in nature. Organized labor has almost unanimous support among political Democrats, but it's a somewhat unique quirk of society that a good number of Republican (voters) also support organized labor, and no, that's NOT a "strawman", just look at the political map of Appalachia. It is predominately red (Republican), and yet still, this area has a general favorable view on unions. I should know... I live here.
Anyway, to conclude, I disagree that my statement of "
many millennials and gen z'ers support socialism" is a "strawman fallacy" as it can be demonstrated through polls and actual conversation that there is indeed a percentage of this age group that do [support complete socialism]. This percentage is... "more than a few, but less than most"... or... "many".
I'd also like to point out, that by your own statement, it could be argued that you yourself invoked a "strawman" into the discussion, using the exact same terminology. You seemed to assume that I implied that
all millennials and gen z'ers support socialism. I take no slight or offense at this, as I realize that you probably didn't even realize you read my comment incorrectly. Such as it is in our modern world of political bantering and bickering. We often hear what we want to hear and disregard the rest. I am guilty of this too. I think we all are.
On a side note, I personally dislike the whole "strawman" thing. I've seen it thrown around a lot, and every time I see it used, it seems to be a tool used to shut down discussion. Maybe the "strawman"
is being used a lot in political discussions, but when one side does invoke a "strawman" into their argument, and the other side calls it out, it seems like the one calling it out takes the superior stance in the argument while the other just feels like an idiot.
Nobody is a perfect debater, but when we use phrases intended to criticize the
delivery of a message, rather than trying to dig deeper and try to understand where the other guy is coming from, then we build walls and we become more divided as a result. Let us stop assuming the worst in everyone. When someone says something, and we feel a slight from it, or we just feel they're wrong, let us put ourselves in the shoes of the other before we dismiss the opinion all together.
Bonus note:
Despite what many may assume from my writings, I do not hold a negative view of socialism, communism, capitalism, or even fascism. They are all just model theories for the operation of a society's economy and power structure. Each one can succeed or fail. None are "good" or "bad", they are just machines that function in certain ways. Communism could work if everyone would play along and do their part, but ultimately, the human brain just isn't wired up in that way. Based on the quirks and vices of human nature, capitalism is probably the most reasonable path forward, and it could be argued is largely responsible for the massive amount of social and economical progress over the last 500 years. Is it perfect? Hell no. It's got LOADS of problems, but again,
based on human nature, we seem to thrive most of a system that
rewards persistent
individual dedication, and so far capitalism seems to be economic machine best aligns with human nature.
No capitalism isn't perfect, but neither is the human species. If we were perfect then communism would work. And maybe someday our brains will evolve to a point where communism would work. But I don't think we're anywhere near that place at this time. Maybe in a few thousand years.
I think Carl Marx was a brilliant man, but I just don't think human brain in its current state of evolution can really achieve his idea, and that's okay, we will progress, slowly but surely.