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No legal duty to let trams pupils switch uniform
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:24 pm
by skirted84
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... iform.html
If implemented it would be a massive backwards step for clothing equality.
Re: No legal duty to let trams pupils switch uniform
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:19 pm
by Stu
A couple of points.
First, the fact there is no "legal duty" doesn't mean individual schools won't allow trans students to switch uniforms. My guess is that 95% or more absolutely will.
Second, and perhaps MORE important, how is this a problem for us? Let's say we are talking about male-to-female trans girls not being allowed to wear girls' uniforms (by which we mean school skirts). If we argue that trans girls are girls, then by making this our fight, we are fighting for the right of girls to identify as girls by wearing skirts. Surely what we should be arguing for is the right of boys to wear skirts, not girls (trans girls or not). Once we side with trans girls on this, we are conceding that skirts are signifiers of being a girl - and I didn't think we wanted that.
Re: No legal duty to let trams pupils switch uniform
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:18 pm
by Midas
Agreed. Trans people are nothing to do with us.
Re: No legal duty to let trams pupils switch uniform
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:52 pm
by crfriend
Stu wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:19 pmSecond, and perhaps MORE important, how is this a problem for us?
Semantically, I'm with Stu on this one -- as
men we do not have a dog in this fight, and have nothing to gain by taking sides or even cheering it on. It is essentially irrelevant at best, and potentially pernicious at worst.
Let's face it, skirts are already pretty well associated in the west as signifiers of womanhood, if we further let that harden for trans-girls we may as well give the game up now because it'll never be accepted by the bulk of male humanity by virtue of transmitting incorrect information.
Re: No legal duty to let trans pupils switch uniform
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:16 pm
by Brad
Midas wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:18 pm
Agreed. Trans people are nothing to do with us.
Midas, you are absolutely correct. However, as I've said in a previous thread
viewtopic.php?f=65&t=22789 "the focus on trans people may have an unintended effect of helping us achieve societal acceptance."
If the mainstream public wants to conflate cisgender men wearing skirts with trans men, that is fine with me if it makes it more acceptable to society. If I wear a skirt and people see a possible trans man, I don't see this as negative to the movement.
Re: No legal duty to let trans pupils switch uniform
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:50 pm
by rode_kater
Stu wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:19 pm
Second, and perhaps MORE important, how is this a problem for us?
Are we not for allowing people to wear whatever they like, i.e. to allow everyone to exercise their freedom of expression?
Stu wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:19 pm
Let's say we are talking about male-to-female trans girls not being allowed to wear girls' uniforms (by which we mean school skirts). If we argue that trans girls are girls, then by making this our fight, we are fighting for the right of girls to identify as girls by wearing skirts.
So you'll fight for your own freedom of expression, but not for those of trans-people? And people wonder why trans-people feel excluded.
Then again, I've never gone to a school where school uniforms were required so maybe that's different?
Re: No legal duty to let trams pupils switch uniform
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:11 pm
by skirted84
No its not directly to do with us, but antipathy for the trans community tends to be bad news for gender non conforming men and boys too. We're already seeing re-hardening views on gendered clothing ie x for boys, y for girls, no crossing over. In particularly boys wearing skirts as a basic clothing choice not more insidious motives. Will be interesting how it plays out.
Various schools have even had pushback for "gender neutral" uniforms, or basically anything that lets biologically male children wear skirts at all.
Re: No legal duty to let trams pupils switch uniform
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:17 pm
by new2skirts
The thread title threw me, I thought a tram driver had opted for a skirt in hot weather
(typo in thread for Trans
)
Re: No legal duty to let trams pupils switch uniform
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:36 pm
by Barleymower
crfriend wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:52 pm
we do not have a dog in this fight, and have nothing to gain by taking sides or even cheering it on.
As far as I see it anyone who wants to dress in a skirt, dress or whatever is welcome to do so. If it were my school I would welcome boys in school skirts. I would make it clear that anyone mocking would face the consequences of their actions. So live and let live.
I'm not religious but I ask myself 'what would Jesus do?'
Re: No legal duty to let trams pupils switch uniform
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:45 pm
by STEVIE
Even less to do with those of us in Scotland actually as that article only applies to English education policy.
BBC Scotland;
"The Scottish Liberal Democrats have backed a motion calling for all schools to have gender-neutral uniforms for students. Jess Insall, 15, told the party conference that allowing girls to wear trousers and boys to wear skirts could result in happier students, better exam results and even better jobs.
Scottish Lib Dems back gender-neutral school uniforms - BBC Ne…
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland ... s-41947722
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland ... s-41947722".
It is moot as to whether this will have any practical effect in promoting male freedom but it cannot be seen as negative either.
Steve.
Re: No legal duty to let trams pupils switch uniform
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:13 am
by crfriend
Barleymower wrote: ↑Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:36 pmcrfriend wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:52 pm
we do not have a dog in this fight, and have nothing to gain by taking sides or even cheering it on.
As far as I see it anyone who wants to dress in a skirt, dress or whatever is welcome to do so. If it were my school I would welcome boys in school skirts.
I wholly agree
in principle, but
in practise it's going to be a signifier that the male wearing a skirt is "not really male" and will definitely cause problems for the male who wishes to exercise a
style choice.
I'm not religious but I ask myself 'what would Jesus do?'
I wish more folks would -- and I can be pretty sure that Jesus never wore trousers.
Re: No legal duty to let trams pupils switch uniform
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:29 am
by Coder
crfriend wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:13 am
Barleymower wrote: ↑Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:36 pmcrfriend wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:52 pm
we do not have a dog in this fight, and have nothing to gain by taking sides or even cheering it on.
As far as I see it anyone who wants to dress in a skirt, dress or whatever is welcome to do so. If it were my school I would welcome boys in school skirts.
I wholly agree
in principle, but
in practise it's going to be a signifier that the male wearing a skirt is "not really male" and will definitely cause problems for the male who wishes to exercise a
style choice.
It’s actually a recurring discussion topic between me and my mom when we discuss my skirts (not often). No matter how many times I say it, it is not “identity” for me. That isn’t to say I don’t see myself as a unique guy who wears a skirt - and that inexplicably forms a certain identity - but it doesn’t have any deep female associations for me. If trans weren’t an issue I think she’d relate it to cd’ing, which again isn’t me.
Re: No legal duty to let trams pupils switch uniform
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:47 am
by crfriend
Coder wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:29 amIt’s actually a recurring discussion topic between me and my mom when we discuss my skirts (not often). No matter how many times I say it, it is not “identity” for me. That isn’t to say I don’t see myself as a unique guy who wears a skirt - and that inexplicably forms a certain identity - but it doesn’t have any deep female associations for me. If trans weren’t an issue I think she’d relate it to cd’ing, which again isn’t me.
With that observation, we're getting close to the crux of the matter because it's not just a male problem (and that of the fragile male ego) -- but it's also a
female problem because they have the same social "programming" as the guys and tend to adhere more rigidly to it. Thus, any guy that shows up wearing a skirt is already suspect no matter what his motive is. That's one of the things that steepens "the hill" we have to take -- and the gals have a hill of their own in that regard.
The above being said, if it's allowed that the skirt becomes a signifier (in its dictionary definition) that
skirt equals "lnot quite male" women will not be able to climb up their (slightly less steep) hill to acceptance and (one would hope) hopefully embrasure. This is why I argue that we have nothing in common with the trans-* contingent -- not for any other reason.
Re: No legal duty to let trams pupils switch uniform
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:45 am
by moonshadow
Midas wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:18 pm
Agreed. Trans people are nothing to do with us.
Who's "us"?
While not many in number, there are a few transgender people on this board, and a few others who identify as gender non-conforming, or identify in other ways on the site. Others still (myself included) consider ourselves "feminine male", and while what that means may vary by the different people applying the term, I look at gender as "masculine/feminine" and sex as "male/female".
So I am a "
gender feminine male". Which is actually a bullet [bigot] proof description for any transgender woman should she choose to apply it to herself.
There are actual dictionary and published encyclopedia descriptions of "gender" being of "masculine/feminine" and some of those same accounts list "woman=feminine" and "man=masculine". It's a very fascinating subject, and quite a rabbit hole I might say.
Sometimes I think the only actual measurable difference between me and a trans-woman is, I simply don't call myself one [a woman], as the label doesn't matter a lot to me, but I understand for others it does. But why doesn't it matter to me? Well, why should it? I am what I am. I'm not going to sit here and argue with anyone, it's obvious what I am, and nobody can read my soul but me. People can tell me what I am and what I am not, share their opinions and whatnot, it won't change facts. The fact is I am what I am, you are what you are, etc, etc... None of this needs to matter, when you get right down to it, it's certain people trying to rule over other people, and then different people just flying off at the mouth about it. I can assure you, the universe doesn't care either way what we call ourselves, nor what we actually are.
I realize the scope of this site, and I'm not trying to step on toes, but I'd ask the participants in this thread to kindly refrain from speaketh for others of whose soul thou cannot knoweth.
Also consider, we're all people, and when one person's rights are trampled, nobody's is safe. Think about it.
Re: No legal duty to let trams pupils switch uniform
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:37 am
by jamie001
moonshadow wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:45 am
Midas wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:18 pm
Agreed. Trans people are nothing to do with us.
Who's "us"?
While not many in number, there are a few transgender people on this board, and a few others who identify as gender non-conforming, or identify in other ways on the site. Others still (myself included) consider ourselves "feminine male", and while what that means may vary by the different people applying the term, I look at gender as "masculine/feminine" and sex as "male/female".
So I am a "
gender feminine male". Which is actually a bullet [bigot] proof description for any transgender woman should she choose to apply it to herself.
There are actual dictionary and published encyclopedia descriptions of "gender" being of "masculine/feminine" and some of those same accounts list "woman=feminine" and "man=masculine". It's a very fascinating subject, and quite a rabbit hole I might say.
Sometimes I think the only actual measurable difference between me and a trans-woman is, I simply don't call myself one [a woman], as the label doesn't matter a lot to me, but I understand for others it does. But why doesn't it matter to me? Well, why should it? I am what I am. I'm not going to sit here and argue with anyone, it's obvious what I am, and nobody can read my soul but me. People can tell me what I am and what I am not, share their opinions and whatnot, it won't change facts. The fact is I am what I am, you are what you are, etc, etc... None of this needs to matter, when you get right down to it, it's certain people trying to rule over other people, and then different people just flying off at the mouth about it. I can assure you, the universe doesn't care either way what we call ourselves, nor what we actually are.
I realize the scope of this site, and I'm not trying to step on toes, but I'd ask the participants in this thread to kindly refrain from speaketh for others of whose soul thou cannot knoweth.
Also consider, we're all people, and when one person's rights are trampled, nobody's is safe. Think about it.
I would like to thank MoonShadow for this excellent reply! I couldn't have said it better myself. I identify as gender nonconforming and my presentation is that of a feminine male. Skirts, women's purses, nail polish, women's earrings, women's shoes and other items are simply a part of my feminine male persona expression. It doesn't matter how we are classified as long as we have freedom and tolerance to wear the clothing that we want to wear.
I don't care if society identifies me as a hippopotamus as long as it is tolerant and respectful of my clothing and presentation.