let's list why we like skirts

[Spirou003]

I throw some oil on the fire (and assume the blame for it)

From my point of view, the problem with Jamie is not about whether he identifies as a female or not, but rather the fact that in most of his messages he blames any bit of masculinity. He is very close to tell that anybody must be ashamed for this and would strive to be exclusively feminine. This is kinda extremist thought, which is nowhere at the right place. I probably exagerate the words, but actually this is how I view him. An extremist who gives no place for masculinity.
I have no problem reading him when he says he feels more feminine etc etc, but I have a problem, let's imagine this example, when someone says "this is a no-go for me because I feel too feminine" and Jamie replies "you should embrace your feminity and forget about masculinity". I remember having read something very close to this example several times.

As for the multiple warnings he receives from the mods... I agree that I would prefer it to end. Either with him posting as usual the same extremist thought, either with a final mod message informing about a concrete action that has been taken. The "ScottL case" already has made several members to quit the board, I think that if the "Jamie's case" is not closed soon (no matter how) a few members will leave as well.

[STEVIE]

I think that if the "Jamie's case" is not closed soon (no matter how) a few members will leave as well.

Spiro, This may be a royal pain in the ass and tedious, but a reason to drop out, really?
I said it earlier, and Carl has reiterated, we don't, or certainly should not, need to state reasons as to why, we just choose to wear whatever we wish!
At it's core that is what fashion freedom is all about, women don't generally justify their choices so no should men.
I'm also tempted to add that anyone who leaves the cafe because of this, is maybe being just a bit too sensitive.
Steve.

[Stu]

I previously listed the reasons I like skirts, but I forgot an important one.

I like skirts because men aren't supposed to wear them and men shouldn't wear them because.... er....


There is no good reason why men aren't supposed to wear them. If we give in to arbitrary prohibitions that have no basis in logic or anything else, we lose a little bit of our personal autonomy. We obey without question.

And I really really don't like that.

So guess what, world. I'm gonna wear a skirt and if you don't like it, well...

[Grok]

I like skirts because men aren't supposed to wear them and men shouldn't wear them because.... er....

There is no good reason why men aren't supposed to wear them. If we give in to arbitrary prohibitions that have no basis in logic or anything else, we lose a little bit of our personal autonomy. We obey without question.

When I was a boy, I had a question that I never dared speak aloud-why aren't males allowed to wear skirts? I couldn't figure out why, and the answer was never volunteered by society.

In adulthood I came to the conclusion that there was no good read reason for the Taboo.

[denimini]

I think that we need to be accepting of other's reasons for wearing skirts. Many of us are criticised in the wider society for breaking convention of male dress code by wearing skirts in which case we are victims of bigotted views. There are many examples of victims becoming the perpetrators, I don't know why but it happens and I would not like us to become perpetrators complaining about another's rebellion againt male srereotypes.

Someone calling themselves a femboi is certainly in a minority here, although breaking convention by wearing skirts whilst acknowleging their male gender, as most of us do in the wider world where we are in a very small minority.

[Uncle Al]

It's not the fact that he considers himself a girl, but rather the fact that he harps on it.
.. many of us play hardball and run with the big dogs and are perfectly happy being men

I don't play hardball and I don't much like big dogs. To identify as a femboi is not to consider
oneself a girl, but to acknowledge the compatibility of femininity and maleness.

IMHO, this is a classic example of misunderstood terms, and definitions, of "Old Sayings", separated,
and created, by time and an ocean apart. An ideal example of a common language, shared by people
who are thousands of miles apart, yet, local 'dialects' and definitions of words change.
Example - A Jumper, in American English, is another name for a pinafore dress.
In U.K. English it means a sweater or garment to provide warmth.

"many of us play hardball" = Be comfortable competing and working with those at the top of the power or social hierarchy.
Synonyms: move in the fast lane, rub shoulders with the movers and shakers, hang with the top dogs

"run with the big dogs" = Idiom: If you can't run with the big dogs, you'd better stay on the porch.
Meaning: If you can't keep up with what others are doing, then it is best not to attempt it.
(This does not have any bearing on whether you like, or dislike any specific animal.)

So, it seems to me that many of Skirt Cafe' "Misunderstandings" are largely due a common language yet
locational understanding of 'terms'(words) are different, depending on where a person resides.

So, will this "concept"(post) help with the understanding of geographical, and age(time) differences

Uncle Al

[TSH]

"Why?" questions aren't even real queries. They're just disingenuous probing into someone else without even the respect of trying to understand their perspective.

It depends on the level of understanding that one is dealing with. Consider a child's question of, "Why is the sky blue?" That's an honest and likely sincere bit of curiosity, and down which path lies introduction to physics and the properties of light.

True, but my ire of it was mainly pointed to how it's used to demand justification from individuals who subvert traditions, expectations, behaviors, and style.

You're right in that "Why?" questions aren't inherently dishonest. The "blue sky" example is a good one, because children are naturally curious little folk who want to learn about the world around them (shame this curiosity decreases with age and people become more arrogant in their limited knowledge as they get older). An easy, though inaccurate answer to the question would be that the sky is a reflection of the water. An elementary student isn't expected to know that white light scatters through Earth's atmosphere, and that these tiny air molecules increase, while the wavelength of light decreases, causing the blue we see during the day. This is still quite a simplistic explanation, too.

That's quite a bit different from questions about individual tastes, desires, and drives. When I was starting to get pushback and question on my attire from my latest attempt at a romance it wasn't innocent at all -- it was an attempt at control. There's a big difference.

Can I just take a moment to highlight the sad irony of a woman trying to dictate a man's choice of clothing, especially since women were subjugated to this for much of human history, and still are in certain countries? The saddest part about the whole situation is how it can happen in a nation that prides itself of theoretically being the "Land of the Free" and championing "equality" when many of its people want to impose their ideals on to its other residents.

Honest questions deserve honest answers, and sometimes in the realm of whimsy and emotion, "Because I like it!" is a perfectly honest and acceptable (hopefully) answer. Because in those realms, where physical laws do not necessarily apply, such an answer makes perfect sense and needs to be accepted as such.

Sadly, not even this reason is good enough for some people. It's especially shocking when a long-time friend or relative questions you about it, and they still harshly rebuff you, anyway. People who are supposed to love you for who you are, suddenly turn on you as if you personally did something to them. As if the very thought of being your own person is somehow sinful, evil behavior. That a male wearing skirts makes them "uncomfortable". Please. Sure, if one asks honestly and respectively, the receiver should respond in kind. However, an insincere question — which tends to get someone else offended, doesn't deserve a genuine answer. Or any answer really. A more appropriate response would be this: "PISS OFF. This is my body; not yours."

"Why do you like classical music?" Because I do; it appeals to me.

This is also fine, but I'd prefer "What draws you to classical music?". It's a more conversational question, rather than specifically to gather information. The tone in which the question is asked is also important. It can still come off as unscrupulous when asked in a condescending manner.

If somebody asks, "Why is the sky blue?" it makes sense to start talking about physics and the properties of different wavelengths of light; if somebody asks, "Why do you wear skirts?" the answer can be anything you feel like answering. 'Nuff said. We do not need to "explain ourselves".

Well said, as always.

I think we need to be careful that by deprecating the irritating behaviour of repeatedly pushing one point we don't suppress the expression of that point when it is the honest response of some members. I don't want to read 25 posts about about your ingrowing toenails but that does not mean that anyone with ingrowing toenails must never mention them.

That's exactly what we've trying to tell Jaime. We don't have anything against feminine MiS. There just needs to be a limit to how much you can educate the idea that "men can be feminine" when "men being feminine" is a large reason skirts on men are still a taboo.

This does not over-rule the general principle that discussions should not stray into areas that are out of bounds on this forum. e.g. I hope it would not be offensive to say that a particular type of skirt makes you feel sexy (women have confided that too), but a detailed exposition of the side effects would be a step too far.

Of course. Humans are sexual creatures with sexual desires. Nothing wrong with being sexy, and saying as such, since miniskirts tend to have that effect. We don't need detailed explanations on such things, though, and miniskirts aren't exclusively that, either.

"Why?" questions aren't even real queries. They're just disingenuous probing into someone else without even the respect of trying to understand their perspective.

My answer to "why?" is a little personal, but may be helpful to many, so I will respond.

I dealt with an itchy skin irritation in the groin (no, not a euphemism for "genitals") for many years. I tried many approaches with various degrees of success, to treat it. It only went away after I started letting the area get air almost full-time. (Being a full-time nudist might have been better, but that's less socially acceptable than men in skirts.) My wife also had been condemned for not following the clothes rules for women, and I want to protest that. Then I started reading about men in skirts online and discovered here and in other places, that high fashion folks said there are no longer men's clothes and women's clothes. I decided I liked that idea and embraced the look.

A smart answer, and very much a valid reason to wear skirts.

I think that we need to be accepting of other's reasons for wearing skirts.

Yes, and there is.

Many of us are criticised in the wider society for breaking convention of male dress code by wearing skirts in which case we are victims of bigoted views. There are many examples of victims becoming the perpetrators; I don't know why but it happens and I would not like us to become perpetrators complaining about another's rebellion against male stereotypes.

I wouldn't us to be hypocrites, either, but you're conflating this irony with the fact that someone here has been extensively trying to get to be like he is, and it won't fly. I can't speak for other members, but I don't mind being considered feminine or girly, nor do I mind being such. Anyone should be open with this, but should do so with tact and not make proclamations such as, "Men should be more feminine!".

[Coder]

I can't speak for other members, but I don't mind being considered feminine or girly, nor do I mind being such. Anyone should be opened with this, but should do so with tact and not make proclamations such as, "Men should be more feminine!".

I think this hits the nail on the head. I too have nothing against being feminine - though it's not my end goal - but I don't want it shoved down my throat either, just as I don't want the same with masculinity. Like - we're at this point because clothing has been heavily gendered - and skirts have come to equate to femininity, even though at the end of the day that's a bunch of crock. We need to try and disconnect the two notions from one another.

As to the original post, I have a few reasons myself:

1) The ability to wear fun patterns, colors, textures - you just can't find with pants. Bouclé shorts/pants? Erm, no thank you
2) I like the shape
3) All the different varieties - wrap, a-line, balloon, paper bag, etc...
4) I've always wanted to

I like to think my reason are simple and not complex - which is why, when I get into conversations with a family member, that I honestly don't have much more to say besides 1, 2, 3, 4 at which point I get "I just don't understand" and "those reason's aren't good enough" or "that's just not logical".

[Faldaguy]

A couple of brief thoughts:

1) IF it is to be continued, the part of this thread related to another member's proclivities should be in another section, and a thread of its own. (Perhaps even left to PM's and the Mod's to address privately.)

2) There are several contributors here who have a tendency to conflate their personal preferences or opinions with fact -- making declarative statements where no general factual basis exists -- I find their persistence in this inclination detracts from their arguments and the cafe's utility.

We can have and share our thoughts, we need not ram them down other's throats; and none of us can proclaim exclusive ownership of "the truth" -- 'nuff said!

[TSH]

I can't speak for other members, but I don't mind being considered feminine or girly, nor do I mind being such. Anyone should be opened with this, but should do so with tact and not make proclamations such as, "Men should be more feminine!".

I think this hits the nail on the head. I too have nothing against being feminine - though it's not my end goal - but I don't want it shoved down my throat either, just as I don't want the same with masculinity. Like - we're at this point because clothing has been heavily gendered - and skirts have come to equate to femininity, even though at the end of the day that's a bunch of crock. We need to try and disconnect the two notions from one another.

The last part I emboldened is especially important. It's crucial to get men to understand that a piece of fabric wrapped around your waist isn't going to make you less manly. We're all so hung up about being as hyper-masculine as possible to the point of absurdity. Gender politics have only exacerbated this fixation. If it's not that, it's because it's popular, and a man wearing a skirt would easily be discernible in a group of people — a bad feeling for social animals, like humans.

As to the original post, I have a few reasons myself:

1) The ability to wear fun patterns, colors, textures - you just can't find with pants. Bouclé shorts/pants? Erm, no thank you
2) I like the shape
3) All the different varieties - wrap, a-line, balloon, paper bag, etc...
4) I've always wanted to

I like to think my reason are simple and not complex - which is why, when I get into conversations with a family member, that I honestly don't have much more to say besides 1, 2, 3, 4 at which point I get "I just don't understand" and "those reasons aren't good enough" or "that's just not logical".

The three responses is the main reason why I wanted to reply in the first place, so I'm going to address each one:

"I just don't understand."

And that's fine. I don't "understand" some of the fashion choices others make, but different people have different tastes. Maybe we're not supposed to "understand".

"Those reasons aren't good enough."

"Aren't good enough" for what? What arbitrary standard did you come up with to allow you to make such a conclusion? They're good enough for me, so I'm going to keep wearing what I, as in, ME, MYSELF, AND especially, I, want to wear. Thank you very much for your not-so-helpful input.

"That's just not logical."

It's SUBJECTIVE; it's not meant to be logical in the first place. A subjective reason doesn't render it invalid on the onset.

Given my presence here, these might seem rather lax compared to the vitriol and bite I typically have in my posts, but you'll be amazed just how sensitive family members can be when you clap back in a way resembling any of these counter-responses I just made. "You're being disrespectfu—" No. YOU'RE the one being disrespectful because you're choosing not to respect me as an individual because it makes you uncomfortable. That third one is especially puzzling, because this person either doesn't understand what logic really is, or doesn't realize what subjectivity means. Either way, I had a lot more to write about, but I think pointing out what logic is should suffice as a "Gotcha!" to such asinine feedback.

Now, with this being my third post here, I might as well finally get on-topic and give a reason why skirts are fascinating. This reason isn't unique, I'm sure, but its impact won't be any less resonant:

We, as in, a collective, like skirts because it gives us, men, a whole new paradigm when it comes to fashion. It allows us to further express ourselves in a way which satisfies us. It gives us more options. It allows us to rethink gendered clothing and how we're better off disregarding the idea as the outdated, limiting trash that it is.

We DON'T need a goddamn reason to wear whatever the hell we want. If we want equality between men and women to happen, society HAS to allow this to prosper and grow. There's no justification to be against this change. It hurts no one and helps people be more comfortable with their own bodies — their own self-image. Those who are, should be opposed, because they want to control other people. They might claim to want "traditional gender roles", but we've seen the harm they can do, especially when they're imposed upon those who don't want to conform to them. And let's be real, most people aren't even consistent when it comes to this rigid horse manure; it's why there's such glaring double standards between men and women to begin with.

[Uncle Al]

Very Well Said, TSH !

Now as to why I like skirts - they free the inner spirit
I feel good when wearing them, they make me happy

I'ld rather be happy than sad

Uncle Al

[Grok]

We, as in, a collective, like skirts because it gives us, men, a whole new paradigm when it comes to fashion. It allows us to further express ourselves in a way which satisfies us. It gives us more options. It allows us to rethink gendered clothing and how we're better off disregarding the idea as the outdated, limiting trash that it is.

Indeed. And some of the physical sensations are a novelty to a man who first tries MIS in adult hood.

[timemeddler]

easier to find a skirt to fit a guy who has a 29" waist and needs at least a 34" inseam. a trip to good will for a maxi and find several options and a pair of tights or long socks vs 3 or four stores and eventually find one pair of pants in my size.

[jamie001]

In my opinion, a significant problem that exists is western society is that masculine women (Tomboys) are accepted and even celebrated by society. On the other hand, there is no societal accepted term for a feminine male (I used the term Femboi or JaneGirl) because they are not supposed to exist in our society because any hint of femininity especially predominant femininity in a male is considered to be egregious behavior. I believe that some members here feel the same way as western society and believe that the only way for skirts to become commonplace for males is for them to be worn in a masculine context. This attitude may result in skirts being accepted as a masculine garment, but does absolutely nothing to advance the rights of males to be who they want to be. This situation still results in males being confined in the very small masculinity box as defined by society. Remember that one of the reasons that women have total fashion freedom is the fact that masculine behavior is accepted in women. Women are no longer confined by society to the femininity box. My point is that men must be allowed to be feminine and express femininity just like women are allowed to be masculine and express masculinity. Making skirts a masculine garment does not advance this cause.

The only way for men to achieve true fashion freedom is to reject societies narrow view and current definition of masculinity, which is essentially the man box. My apologies if this post has offended members here. If society is to evolve, then it must stop looking down on men that are feminine and embrace all forms of expression and ways of being not just what is reflected by the clothing that we wear. Only then will men and women achieve complete equality.

The bottom line is that all members points of view and ways of being should be accepted and respected here from the most masculine to the most feminine because this is who we are. Folks do not come to the Cafe in order to mold their persona to a forum defined view of how a skirt wearing man should look and act. They come here to be accepted for the person that they are and because we all love skirts.

[Stu]

Jamie,

I have no desire to re-invent or redefine masculinity, and I would resist any attempt by others to inflict their views as to what masculinity should be onto me.

You do you. I will fully accept you as a man with feminine traits, but you are still a man just as I am still a man if I wear a skirt. If a man goes down the path of full gender reassignment, then that changes things and he becomes a she. What I don't buy into is the idea that someone can just decide they wish to opt-out of the sexual dimorphism by which nature divides all mammals like us into male and female.

Of course societies can and do evolve, but you have no right to try to dictate exactly how, and how fast, that evolution takes place to fit your own ideology. That has to be either a natural phenomenon, or to occur as a result of a consensus.