skirtcafe.org

Boys should be able to wear skirts to school because uniforms 'should not discriminate', a children's adviser has claimed.

Tam Baillie, the Scottish parliament’s Commissioner for Children and Young People, has backed 13-year-old Luca Scarabello, who is fighting for a ban on ‘gender-specific uniforms’.

Mr Baillie said that Luca, a pupil at St Mungo’s High School in Falkirk, Stirlingshire, who lodged a petition with the Scottish Government in November, had ‘raised important rights issues’.

The public petitions committee (PPC

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1mGEnQVyG

Stu

Ah yes – the Daily Wail at its best! Trying to be all-correct but getting it wrong – as usual!

The headline says “Boys should be allowed to wear skirts” but then the article seemed to concentrate more on specific LGBT groups with this proposal to stop them being persecuted by their peers and “forcing” them to wear the wrong clothes, resulting in stress/distress to the pupil.

They also seem to imply that skirts are girls clothing missing the point there as well.

Even the last paragraph about the boy from Cambridgeshire whose parents brought him up as gender-neutral by “allowing him to cross-dress”. If the “infant” was a girl, the word cross-dress would not even have been mentioned.

Thankfully I don’t read that rag! And am even less likely to start now!

Sterling work fighting them off, Stu! I tried to help you but my first couple of posts have not appeared, even though I made them a few hours ago. Maybe it's something to do with the nickname I chose: Notarabidrightwinger!

skirtyscot wrote:Sterling work fighting them off, Stu!

Aye, but it rather clearly looks like he's fighting a rear-guard action.

Generally speaking, I refrain from reading "user posts" to "news articles" as it seems that, for the most part, they represent the worst that our societies have on offer. True enough, once in a while one will encounter a gem -- and thank you, Stu -- but for the most part it's all unmitigated dross.

I'll also chime in with support for Skirtingtoday's commentary that the article went off the rails the moment they dragged LGBT (Let's Get Battered Trout?) into the mix. The rag failed utterly in that respect as all they're doing is perpetuating stereotype. They should spend a week in the pillory of shame for that. (Is this a Murdoch paper?) Conflating fashion statements with gender uncertainty does nobody any favours.

Had the article focussed on the dual notions of equality and discrimination, I feel they would have done better. Bluntly put, dress codes (more widely honoured in the breach than observance, I'll add, at least on one side) are discriminatory; it's time to do away with them as ossified objects from the past.

SkirtScot wrote:I tried to help you but my first couple of posts have not appeared, even though I made them a few hours ago. Maybe it's something to do with the nickname I chose: Notarabidrightwinger!

It must be a Murdoch outlet. They likely heuristically filter on notions like that. You might as well have said you were a "liberal" (which is now an epithet).

I agree with the petition, but the Daily wail article is well down to their usual standard.

Despite the association with LGBT and feminine clothing, I think this is a really good thing that we could get behind. For the first time I am actually hearing this issue being raised in regards to school uniforms and on a whole, the idea of true equality that men should have the choice of skirts is in my opinion a real win. Its things like this that get the idea out into the public and inevitably stirs other men up to fight for skirts. I definitely will not be shooting this down just because of its association with current prejudices instead I hope that this generates more awareness about the complete and utter sexism in men fashion. I have to say, this may be a sign that things are really changing!!!! About Time!!!!!

Looking at the 'reader' comments says a lot about the attitude of part of the population of the UK in general. The attitude is that boys and girls are different (phew glad that came out) and should be treated in different ways.

The other over riding attitude was that skirts and dresses were for females and Homosexuals. How do you counter such homophobia? Glad that I do not have to share a neighbourhood with them.

From thinking around the lads petition all he wants is for Schools to stop being unfair in the setting of uniform. Could not agree more, I can remember the long hot days of summer wearing the same uniform that kept me warm in winter. Whilst the Girls could wear light cotton dresses if they wanted and be cool.

Perhaps we should start another petition asking for the banning of Trousers/ Shorts when the temperature goes over 70f (sadly never get it off the ground).

stevelous wrote:Looking at the 'reader' comments says a lot about the attitude of part of the population of the UK in general.

(My emphasis)
Clearly you don't really believe that a small, self-selected, sample of individuals who read a news paper famed for sensationalist stories and not letting facts get in the way, are genuinely representative of the UK population. Based on the experiences of all the UK members here who wear skirts out and about, these attitudes belong to a vanishingly small proportion of the population.

The comments that follow the article are demonstrative only of the decisions of the comment moderators employed by the Daily Mail. All comments are moderated at the Mail and very few of those I've submitted have ever turned up in the listing; if that is typical, all you are seeing is the highlights selected to add to the sensationalism of the story. Just more of the Daily Mail selling froth to their target audience of people dumb enough to a) pay for the rag and b) believe what they read.

Have fun,


Ian.

This is worth a comment.
The Scottish Assembly is currently considering a raft of proposals which effectively outlaws discrimination in as many forms as can be imagined.
To make the dress code for schools "gender unspecific" is just one among many but that seems to have become news worthy.
My local paper had an editorial which deemed it "political correctness gone mad". Essentially, kids at school are ill prepared for the worlld of work as it is and only worsened if they think that they can wear clothes to please themselves.
The example scenario was, 2 guys go for an interview, one in a skirt, who gets the job? Unfortunately, this is probably correct but not right or fair and way too sweeping.
I had two particular thoughts. In Scotland, it is possible that the "skirt" could be "The Kilt" and if another candidate was in another form of national dress, there is a case for racial discrimination. More so, if a female could prove that she failed on the basis of wearing trousers there would be a clear case of sex discrimination.
There may be a lot of legislation to come, shortly, but attitudes may or may not follow and not so soon, watch the space.
Steve.

Milfmog wrote:

stevelous wrote:Looking at the 'reader' comments says a lot about the attitude of part of the population of the UK in general.

(My emphasis)
Clearly you don't really believe that a small, self-selected, sample of individuals who read a news paper famed for sensationalist stories and not letting facts get in the way, are genuinely representative of the UK population. Based on the experiences of all the UK members here who wear skirts out and about, these attitudes belong to a vanishingly small proportion of the population.

The comments that follow the article are demonstrative only of the decisions of the comment moderators employed by the Daily Mail. All comments are moderated at the Mail and very few of those I've submitted have ever turned up in the listing; if that is typical, all you are seeing is the highlights selected to add to the sensationalism of the story. Just more of the Daily Mail selling froth to their target audience of people dumb enough to a) pay for the rag and b) believe what they read.

Have fun,


Ian.

Thanks for the emphasis correction, I should have done that myself.

I have found thew best use for the Daily Mail (collected form wifes work place). Put it under the Cats litter tray, we find it very absorbant when one of them 'misses' the litter and with 5 of them it happens quite a lot!

Over here on the other side of "the pond" our schools have only 2 rules about clothing. (1) Underwear must be worn on the inside, and (2) Boys can't wear skirts or dresses. Real smart! Apparently anything else is ok, no matter how outrageous. Probably only a matter of time before someone challenges it, but it hasn't happened yet.

Davy wrote:Over here on the other side of "the pond" our schools have only 2 rules about clothing. (1) Underwear must be worn on the inside, and (2) Boys can't wear skirts or dresses. Real smart! Apparently anything else is ok, no matter how outrageous. Probably only a matter of time before someone challenges it, but it hasn't happened yet.

To the best of my recollection, I have never seen an explicit prohibition on skirts for the lads, but there is always a rule somewhere about "disruptive behaviour or appearance" that gives school administrators absolute power to suppress creative thought for any reason they want.

Schools that have formal dress codes, or uniforms, will typically specify trousers for the lads and trousers or skirts for the lasses. This type of code could be challenged on discriminatory grounds but would require somebody who really believed that he should be allowed the skirt option, parents to back him up, lawyers to back the parents, and a heaping dose of ridicule heaped upon the school in question for a discriminatory practise. It doesn't take a genius to see that getting all those pieces to align perfectly is nigh well impossible.

Recall, too, that one of the functions of the "school experience" is to beat much of an individual's creativity out of him and reshape the individual in society's image, and the types that typically gravitate to administration-level positions in education tend to be hide-bound with precious little creativity and, sometimes, a bit of a control-freak mentality. School is not the place, I suspect, to try to be changing anything; it's the lucky child indeed who has the wisdom to stay below the RADAR and not let the system rob him of his creative ability -- and that means shutting up, putting up, and simply playing the game that the administrators call. If it seems arbitrary that's because it frequently is.

crfriend wrote:

Davy wrote:Over here on the other side of "the pond" our schools have only 2 rules about clothing. (1) Underwear must be worn on the inside, and (2) Boys can't wear skirts or dresses. Real smart! Apparently anything else is ok, no matter how outrageous. Probably only a matter of time before someone challenges it, but it hasn't happened yet.

To the best of my recollection, I have never seen an explicit prohibition on skirts for the lads, but there is always a rule somewhere about "disruptive behaviour or appearance" that gives school administrators absolute power to suppress creative thought for any reason they want.

Schools that have formal dress codes, or uniforms, will typically specify trousers for the lads and trousers or skirts for the lasses. This type of code could be challenged on discriminatory grounds but would require somebody who really believed that he should be allowed the skirt option, parents to back him up, lawyers to back the parents, and a heaping dose of ridicule heaped upon the school in question for a discriminatory practise. It doesn't take a genius to see that getting all those pieces to align perfectly is nigh well impossible.

Recall, too, that one of the functions of the "school experience" is to beat much of an individual's creativity out of him and reshape the individual in society's image, and the types that typically gravitate to administration-level positions in education tend to be hide-bound with precious little creativity and, sometimes, a bit of a control-freak mentality. School is not the place, I suspect, to try to be changing anything; it's the lucky child indeed who has the wisdom to stay below the RADAR and not let the system rob him of his creative ability -- and that means shutting up, putting up, and simply playing the game that the administrators call. If it seems arbitrary that's because it frequently is.

There have been some cases where a boy has come against opposition for wearing a kilt to school, then won their right when they challenged it, as it is men’s clothing and the school was guilty of discrimination on many levels. I think of how girls have in many cases won the right to wear pants in school due to the change in society’s attitude that pants are women’s clothing. I can’t help then think of the rising popularity of the kilt and utilikilts as a possible exception to the rule at this present time, especially in places where the kilt has a well establish trend and following. Not to mention the many schools already that have no problem at all with a boy wearing a kilt.

Furthermore, there is a huge move in society and correspondingly in schools to accept forms of gender nonconformity, whether that being a guy wanting to wear heels or a boy (often transgendered) wanting to wear a dress which is raising big questions about discrimination especially towards boy who are different. Importantly, I think this is starting to have an overflow effect for other issues like boys (straight or not) being able to wear skirts. The whole discrimination issue could possibly in the future (near or far) work to our advantage for skirts for boys in schools.

crfriend wrote:

Davy wrote:Over here on the other side of "the pond" our schools have only 2 rules about clothing. (1) Underwear must be worn on the inside, and (2) Boys can't wear skirts or dresses. Real smart! Apparently anything else is ok, no matter how outrageous. Probably only a matter of time before someone challenges it, but it hasn't happened yet.

To the best of my recollection, I have never seen an explicit prohibition on skirts for the lads, but there is always a rule somewhere about "disruptive behaviour or appearance" that gives school administrators absolute power to suppress creative thought for any reason they want.

The rule at our school is very explicit!

crfriend wrote:Schools that have formal dress codes, or uniforms, will typically specify trousers for the lads and trousers or skirts for the lasses. This type of code could be challenged on discriminatory grounds but would require somebody who really believed that he should be allowed the skirt option, parents to back him up, lawyers to back the parents, and a heaping dose of ridicule heaped upon the school in question for a discriminatory practise. It doesn't take a genius to see that getting all those pieces to align perfectly is nigh well impossible.

Recall, too, that one of the functions of the "school experience" is to beat much of an individual's creativity out of him and reshape the individual in society's image, and the types that typically gravitate to administration-level positions in education tend to be hide-bound with precious little creativity and, sometimes, a bit of a control-freak mentality. School is not the place, I suspect, to try to be changing anything; it's the lucky child indeed who has the wisdom to stay below the RADAR and not let the system rob him of his creative ability -- and that means shutting up, putting up, and simply playing the game that the administrators call. If it seems arbitrary that's because it frequently is.

How true this is, and I suspect this is the same on both sides of "the pond".

Davy wrote:The rule at our school is very explicit!

I don't doubt you, but the fact that there is something explicit either implies that somebody in the hierarchy is very uncomfortable about the notion of any breaking with the norms or that there was a previous challenge that was unsuccessful. Given the natural level of conformity that children and teenagers have to one another it's actually surprising that many youngsters even get the notion of something other than trousers in the first place, and then have the stones to try that in practise out and about. So, I rather suspect that there's something else in the mix.

Where is this school? I'd love to read the rule(s)!