the first male skirt to meet success?

[Caultron]

I think that general acceptance of skirts, if and when it comes, will just pop out of nowhere the way long hair for men, earrings for men, hip-hop shorts, and wearing hats backwards did.

[Dana]

@skirtingseattle - True that being more noticed gets the word out, however it seems that the numbers of skirted men is so small that perhaps a conservative approach will prompt more men to take even the conservative approach but still be wearing a skirt. I think we all know that men who actually want to wear a skirt are certainly going to notice what the oblivious masses may not, and the result will be to turn more men on the cusp to be actively skirt wearing individuals. This in turn will help turn the tide and then allow more "noticeable" skirts to be worn. We are not just trying to accommodate people who are not used to seeing men in skirts but are trying to make those less bold and comfortable with the idea than many on this forum actually cross the line themselves. Of course this is all just a theory and personal opinion

[Grok]

"Cusp" may be a very useful term.

[Grok]

Someone on the cusp may be a woman who occasionally wears a skirt. In contrast to women (Skirtonians) who often wear such. On the other hand, many women rarely if ever skirts, and I presume many men would likewise stick to trousers.

[crfriend]

"Cusp" may be a very useful term.

Context?

A few people have mentioned "stealth skirts."

Context?

Posts that appear as if from nowhere without any context whatsoever, like the two above, tend to speak poorly of the poster. If a particular post can stand on its own, without quotes, or other context that it may need to be interpreted in, then that's OK. One-liners, or sentence-fragments, without any sense of context are "less than useful".

For instance, in this author's case, "cusp" rather handily referred to the precipice of a hill that I drove over the other day at the behest of a trusted acquaintance. The paved path dropped off so sharply that I inadvertently let out a blurt of "Jeezus, where the f**k did the road go?!" (This represents the first time I've let anything like that out inadvertently in a very long time. That's how sharp the precipice was; once "over the edge" I was quite handily able to steer comfortably, but for a good half-second or so I felt like what the captain of Columbus' fourth ship must've felt like.)

On the topic of "stealth skirts", there are many instances of such mentions, mainly that of the "invisible" denim skirt. I would also put the satin-like knee-length variety in the mix as those could masquerade quite handily as what passes for "shorts" nowadays, at least where I live.

I am not trying to be a swine here; what I'm trying to do is make sure that things "read" correctly to those who are reading them. Context-free posts do not help in this regard; rather, they hinder understanding. If a post requires context, please provide it.

[Dana]

and on that note, the thread has died. ...however after reading my own comment again, I agree that the word "cusp", is appropriate indeed.

[Couya]

and on that note, the thread has died.

Which was a pity, as this was one of the most interesting threads, and perhaps, one of the most useful -- or it would be if it were read by industrial clothes makers or designers. Unfortunately, most of the content will remain within our little closed world and have little effect on the fashion industry.

If ready-made clothing manufacturers showed on their runways the styles and garments that we would like to wear, the world could become a different place.

Martin

[Grok]

I think this thread simply exhausted the topic. There are only so many candidate designs for "the first male skirt to meet success." Or rather, the first design after kilts to meet success.

[crfriend]

I think this thread simply exhausted the topic. There are only so many candidate designs for "the first male skirt to meet success."

I quite suspect that's precisely what happened. This topis has been batted around a number of times, and it always seems to wind right back up in the same spot -- a heavy-duty, utilitarian garment of around knee-length, and almost invariably of some heavy, stiff, fabric like -- gasp -- denim.

Skirts answering that very specification are already easily available in any good department store or online emporium. The bloke just needs to find the stones to venture out of the tiny section of the market that's reserved for his perusal. Done. Problem solved.

[Caultron]

I think this thread simply exhausted the topic. There are only so many candidate designs for "the first male skirt to meet success." Or rather, the first design after kilts to meet success.

I agree. While it's certainly possible to propose, "wrong," styles no mainstream man would ever wear, I don't think it's possible for any, "right," design to attract mainstreamers in and of itself.

Somehow, wearing a skirt has to catch on as something cool to do. Like, some rock star or pro athlete or media celebrity has to do it *a lot*, and then the same sort of design has to show up in lots of local, off-the-rack stores.

Until them, just wear what you want. So much other weird stuff goes on that people really won't care.

[pelmut]

I think this thread simply exhausted the topic. There are only so many candidate designs for "the first male skirt to meet success." Or rather, the first design after kilts to meet success.

I agree. While it's certainly possible to propose, "wrong," styles no mainstream man would ever wear, I don't think it's possible for any, "right," design to attract mainstreamers in and of itself.

Somehow, wearing a skirt has to catch on as something cool to do. Like, some rock star or pro athlete or media celebrity has to do it *a lot*, and then the same sort of design has to show up in lots of local, off-the-rack stores...

Another possibility is that they become the norm for one particular activity or group.

One activity where skirts are already acceptable for men is in Contra Dances in the US ; this trend is beginning to spread slowly into folk festivals in the UK. In the UK, these festivals tend to last several days and include a wide variety of dances and other activities, which means that skirt/kiltwearing is seen outside the narrow confines of Contra Dance and gradually becomes regarded as normal.

Until recently the clothing industry has ben aiming its advertising at one particular group, the one it sees as its most profitable market: the young clothes-buying 'trendies'. In an attempt to 'masculinise' the skirt concept and make it even more trendie-orientated, they have used models who are parodies of masculinity in ludicrous poses wearing ridiculous designs; is it any wonder that are meeting no success with their target audience and having a negative effect on the older (more mature?) men who could become skirt-wearers with a small amount of the right kind of encouragement.

There is obviously an increasing demand for men's skirts and it is encouraging that the number of bespoke and small-batch manufacturers offering them seems to be on the increase; but economies of scale mean that the price will remain high until production reaches a certain break-point. Once that happens, the price will drop, the big manufacturers will wade into the market and the revolution will begin.

[Note: I am not saying that the current prices are suppressing demand, but the eventual triggering factor could well be something like a wholesaler having to dump a load of unsold stock on the market at rock-bottom prices and hundreds of men giving it a try because it is a bargain]

[Caultron]

...economies of scale mean that the price will remain high until production reaches a certain break-point. Once that happens, the price will drop, the big manufacturers will wade into the market and the revolution will begin.

Yes, that's definitely part of the picture as well. $250 utility kilts you have to order over the Internet and wait a month to get will never become mainstream. Practical and trendy skirts, somehow differentiated from womenswear, will have to show up in local stores at prices comparable to women's skirts and men's pants.

But it's the old chicken-and-egg story.

[crfriend]

OK, I'm going to have a go at this topic, but coming at it from a different angle -- and, yes, it's going to involve logic.

I suspect what we -- as guys -- long for is something to differentiate "our skirts" from "our sisters' skirts", but that's going to be a tough thing to actually do in practice. The reason that it's going to be difficult to do is because men and women are vastly more similar to one another than they are different, at least from a physical perspective as it pertains to clothing.

Both the male and the female of the species Homo Sapien share many similarities. They are both bipedal, erect-standing, and exhibit fairly strong bilateral symmetry in the dorsal/ventral line. In fact, without distinct cues it can sometimes be difficult to differentiate between the two at a distance or in conditions of poor visibility. Generally speaking, the female of the species has noticeably wider hips than the male; this is to accommodate the reproductive system which allows Homo Sapien to have one of the largest brain/body mass ratios in the natural world; the female is also usually,but not always, smaller in stature and frame than the male.

From the sweeping generalization above, it should follow that it would be possible for clothing types and designs to be widely "portable" between the two, save for the necessities of ways to keep the garment on.

Women, with their generally-narrower waists (ratio-wise) and wider hips do, generally, require different tailoring for garments than do men (I will use the terms "men" and "women" going forward as I find the biological terms a bit too "clinical".). This can cause some "portability" problems with garments designed to enclose the volume below the waist. But is this necessarily a problem? In the case of trousers I would say, "Yes." as trousers so-tailored would tent to look like jodhpurs on men; however, in the case of skirts the extra volume at the hipline merely hangs from the waist loosely. I would posit that a skirt deliberately tailored for a man's physique would likely bring with it the sort of problem that women have with "pencil skirts" -- that of restrictiveness -- and men do not like being restricted under most circumstances. So tailoring, which might not be desirable, is really the only means based on biology and form that would discriminate between a men's skirt and a women's skirt.

If we take the position that men, by nature, do not prefer restrictive garments, then that removes tailoring as the primary option to produce a men's skirt.

What, then, is left to differentiate the two? This author posits very little indeed, save for decoration (D-rings, wide belt-loop, studs, big pockets, &.), fabric choice (which immediately goes out the window as women already use the entire range of fabrics available), color (ditto), or some notion of length (which will collide with lengths already worn by women).

With the above in mind, the astute can tell that this is not a matter of styling details, nor tailoring details, nor decoration details; the Real Issue can therefore only be found in the mind -- of both men and women and the question descends into one of sociology, equality, preconceived notions, and the Balance of Power. It's not a physical or stylistic problem -- it's a mental one.

So, if a man procures a skirt for himself, via any means or channel, it is. therefore, a man's skirt -- more to the point, it's his skirt, and he should be confident about that. Ultimately (to quote), "We have met the enemy, and he is us."

[Grok]

"If a man procures a skirt for himself....it is therefore a man's skirt." It occurs to me that that view point fits perfectly with DIY projects.

[Big and Bashful]

I was impressed in Rothesay, I went for a breakfast, the lass who was cooking spotted my knee length Midas cargo skirt, after asking me to stand up and "give her a twirl" she told me it was a skirt tailored for a man. After some banter she also told me she was a seamstress by trade. It goes to show that there really is a visible differencebetween skirts cut for males and for females, due to the reasons Carl mentioned above.
(I'm really going to miss Midas!)