Perception!

[Pythos]

Sorry milfmog, have to do a bit of a correction to your response.

Had I said ALL women are cowards, that would make what I said a generalization. However I put a qualifier that allows for exclusion to the statement...most. In my experience I have noticed most women are indeed frightened of the different. When one flees from something it means they are a coward when it comes to that thing. Running from a mouse makes one a coward when it comes to mice. Most women will leave their boyfriend if he were to start wearing skirts. This is not necessarily soley the Woman's fault, it is in fact because of what fear the woman has of what her other fearful woman and male friends would think, essentially causing a cascading effect.

As far as the beatings, have you heard of gay bashing? Usually what someone thinks when they see a guy wearing "women's" clothes is Gay. If you have an empty headed gay basher seeing a guy in a skirt, the combination most likely would result in the MUG to get pounded into the ground, or the gay basher pounded into the ground, either way a confrontation that could result in injury.

Does it happen often? Well how many guys out there are wearing skirts in public?

It is a threat.

As far as my main concern, getting labeled a loony, this is simply because of the ignorance of a male centric FAA, and aviation field in general. It is slowly going away, but it is unfortunately still present. I have not risked this possibility because I lack the funds to sue for slander, and defamation of character, and I don't want to lose my privilege of being a pilot. As far as I am concerned this should not be an issue at all. I should be able to show up for a job, in a well fitted skirt suit, and have my job eligibility be based on what is in my log book, and not what is on my body.

[Kris]

Frankly I think there is major legal loophole in this though. If a boss fires someone because of the clothing the employee wears on his own time, because the boss thinks that the employee is gay, I would think that despite clothing choices are not protected by anti-discrimination laws, Gender, or orientation is. So If the reason a person was fired was due to perceived notions, then legally the employer was in violation. For some reason this does not work how ever.

Managers and members of the Human Resource department know what are legal and illegal reasons for dismissing an employee. A manager will never admit to an illegal reason for a dismissal. They will make sure that all the paperwork reflects some legal cause. If you take them to court, that paperwork will be produced in their defense. Your only hope would be that the manager was foolish enough to tell someone of his illegal motive, and that whoever he told would be brave and honest enough to come forward and testify. Few people will do that.

Kris

[Milfmog]

Sorry milfmog, have to do a bit of a correction to your response.

Had I said ALL women are cowards, that would make what I said a generalization. However I put a qualifier that allows for exclusion to the statement...most.

OK, however I will say that I still feel your statement to be unreasonably broad and pejorative.

As far as the beatings, have you heard of gay bashing?

Of course I have, I’ve also heard of mugging, armed robbery, road deaths… the list is endless but despite that I’m brave enough to leave home most days… (Ain’t I just the hero? ) According to wikipedia homosexuals make up at least 2% of the population, say 2 million male adults in the US, I doubt that they all hide indoors all day, every day and yet gay bashing is rare, very rare. Even in verbal form it is not something I have ever witnessed outside of television or the movies and it is something that is sufficiently news worthy to make the papers when it happens but we still hear very little about it.

You have been known to remark that too few of us on this board go out dressed as we choose (I seem to recall you complaining that most pictures here were taken in peoples gardens or homes) and yet it seems that you allow an unsubstantiated fear to limit you. Every experience reported here has been that any form of aggravation is very rare and I do not ever remember anyone here reporting a beating or even any significant verbal abuse. If we all sit at home frightened of all the nasty people out there how do you expect to achieve the acceptance you say you crave?

There are nasty people out there and mindless thugs may choose to pick on anyone for no better reason than the fact that they are mindless thugs. I have heard of people being beaten up because they had red hair, but that does not keep you indoors does it?

As to how others perceive you and the possible effects on your career, that is something you need to judge for yourself. Your colleagues know you choose to dress differently in your own time, your chong sam picture was put up at work as I recall, however you still have a job and you have not told us that your colleagues have decided to shun you, so ask yourself how serious that fear is. I am not going to advocate gong for a job interview skirted unless you know how the interviewer will react but once again it’s about maintaining a reasonable perspective of the risk. While I would not try to claim there is no risk in any activity, talking up the risk will achieve nothing except to spread unrealistic fears.

Have fun and don’t let imaginary demons ruin it for you,


Ian.

[AMM]

As far as the beatings, have you heard of gay bashing?

Of course I have, I’ve also heard of mugging, armed robbery, road deaths… the list is endless but despite that I’m brave enough to leave home most days…

You have been known to remark that too few of us on this board go out dressed as we choose (I seem to recall you complaining that most pictures here were taken in peoples gardens or homes)...

Actually, a fair number of us here do go out "dressed" on a regular basis. I went to Washingon, DC on the train and back in a skirt. That included riding the Metro, a bus, and on the way back, the NYC subway and Metro-North.

Is there some danger? In principle, yes. But what are you going to do? Put up bars on the windows and armor plate on you door and cower inside in fear? How is that an improvement on being dead?

I had to face this when I moved to NYC, a quarter of a century ago. Would I put up bars on the windows? Would I refuse to ride the subway at night, the way so many people recommend? I finally decided I'd rather risk a break-in (assuming a burglar could find anything worth stealing!) than live behind bars. I'd rather risk getting robbed than give up dancing and movies and stuff.

For that matter, we take our lives in our hands every time we get into a car. (Why worry about terrorists or gay-bashers, when you're sharing the road with O(10 million) homicidal maniacs?)

Of course, my perspective may be different from Pythos's. I've been facing the fact that I'm a lot closer to the end of my life than my beginning. What's the point of bending myself out of shape to avoid nut cases if I'm just going to die of a heart attack or a stroke, anyway -- or, worse, something long and lingering?

[Pythos]

Honestly, my biggest worry is the effect it can have on my chosen career. If I knew I would have legal backing in the case of the FAA ruining my life, then I would wear what ever I damned well pleased. Unfortunately this is not the case.

The picture at the shop was counted as purely a costume for an event. My fellow workers knew that I prefer leggings to jeans, and paid no mind. However I never did show up in a skirt and hose. I would absolutely loved to, but there was that fear.

I stated that not enough members here that could go out with nearly no social repercussions. The ones I was addressing are the ones that have lived life, succeeded, and are for lack of a better term in the twilight of their time here on earth. They have the money, the history, and so on to be able to pull something like being bold in clothing choices with very little chance of their life being ruined.

People my age? Not so much. I screw up once, and I am finished. So I am in a pickle. I had a friend of mine go through GRS. She/he was dubbed mentally unfit until passing several tests that were both intrusive and expensive. My friend had the funds, and proved she was the same pilot as she was when she was male. I am not even having that damned surgery, I just like wearing something different than pants all the time. But to some closed minded Fed, let alone potential employer, I could be a potential nut case. I am getting along in my career, I have acquired 1000 flight hours, and am looking into becoming a Certified Flight Instructor. My fear is warranted, however, I am not giving up. Just waiting for the right moment, and that right moment is when men who can, go out wearing what they want. When the idea becomes not so strange, but rare. When the sight of a guy in a skirt is an oddity, opposed to a sign of mental illness.

Does that explain my seemingly hypocritical stance to you Milfmog?

[Skirt Chaser]

Another thing is most women are also cowards, and see a guy wearing a skirt, and immediately run to the "hunk" or some other neanderthal when it comes to dating material.

For all we know the hunk is busy wearing his skirts at home too and we just don't see it.

As I look around the cafe I think we have adequate examples that the average guy in a skirt gets the girl too. Of course, the kinda gal that likes men in skirts may be a bit goofy in her own right which helps her properly appreciate a skirted man. I know in my case my husband can never out-weird me when it comes to clothes. For instance today I'm wearing these shoes with great joy. Not everyone is able to deal with looks and other unwanted attention though and that is okay. Really, it is a good thing that a publicly worn skirt chases off the women that aren't interested in their man wearing that. It is a quick way to weed out prospects that aren't compatible. That's why I'm all for people being upfront early on about their tastes (in anything really) that might be a problem in a relationship.

[Pythos]

Those are some crazy shoes, I like.

I have to ask you though skirt chaser, can you see where I am coming from? It seems I missed the mark with at least one member here.

[crfriend]

I stated that not enough members here that could go out with nearly no social repercussions. The ones I was addressing are the ones that have lived life, succeeded, and are for lack of a better term in the twilight of their time here on earth. They have the money, the history, and so on to be able to pull something like being bold in clothing choices with very little chance of their life being ruined.

Whilst I'm coming at this from an age where I'm a bit closer to being dead than alive, I haven't got any feet (of all three of 'em -- you should see me dance) in the grave yet.

It's not really a question of age, it's more of a question of attitude. I'll grant that the "older set" may be granted more leeway because of their experience and, if they're lucky, wisdom of how things work in their chosen professions -- even though they may be considered doddering old fools by the kiddies -- but this does not hold in all things. It ultimately comes down to what one is capable of, and how one acquits himself in performing those tasks; those facets will garner more respect than anything else, including how one chooses to attire one's self.

I fought "perception" for years with my long hair; every adult relative I had routinely castigated me for my appearance and told me that it would hold me back. It hasn't (other things, mainly complacency, have). If you can prove your mettle -- be it on the computer room floor, the machine shop, or in the air -- people will appreciate and respect that; whilst they may find some of your fashion choices a wee bit "odd", they should know that what you're wearing does not dictate how you perform.

[Pythos]

You know, the more I think about this, I think I can target where my fears actually come from. My mom.

My mom is always hounding me about my hair length, which I have always preferred to be longer than the average male. She always said "if you want to be an airline captain, you had better cut your hair, and stop wearing those fairy pants" or something like that. Honestly it is debilitating in a way. I am scared of even broaching the topic of clothing choices with anyone in the field I prefer.

If I become an airline captain, then that's fine, but honestly I want to be in cargo transport. But honestly neither of these should be affected by what clothing I wear, or how long my hair is. Unfortunately the number of people that think like us here, is far smaller than enforces of conformity, especially in the field of aviation.

Think how the average ignorant person would react if they heard the captain of their plane they are flying in is a guy that wears skirts. Or as my mom would ask "if they heard the pilot of the plane they are in is a man that wears tights." She has said similar before.

It really sucks, cause I love flying, and I love fashion freedom, I want to give neither up, but I am sick of hiding too.

[Milfmog]

Pythos,

I have understood what you are saying and I do realise that the fears you express are often held by others too. I can accept that in a work environment you may have little choice but to conform to others expectations, I do the same when I'm on the clock, I can't afford not to earn a living for very long and so will not take chances with my career.

My angle is not that there is nothing to fear, nor that we should all go to work dressed to confuse, but that we ought not to let irrational, imaginary or exaggerated fears stop us. Clearly we should be aware of real risks and should take steps to mitigate them, however when we stop and think about our fears logically most of them turn out to be less significant than we initially thought. Our fears are products of social conditioning and unfortunately when we spend lots of time restating our fears we are actually adding to that conditioning both for ourselves and for those who read what we've written.

Your last post suggests that you have spotted one source of your conditioning; I suspect there are many others though, given the importance of parents in our lives, they will probably be less significant than your mother.

If I have come across as "having a go" at you please accept my apologies, that was not my intent. I am simply asking that we all keep things in perspective.

Have fun,


Ian (who, unlike Carl, has only two feet but when dancing can prove them both to be left feet...)

[Milfmog]

If I become an airline captain, then that's fine, but honestly I want to be in cargo transport. But honestly neither of these should be affected by what clothing I wear, or how long my hair is. Unfortunately the number of people that think like us here, is far smaller than enforces of conformity, especially in the field of aviation.

I honestly think you are underestimating Joe Public, who is mostly far smarter and more accepting (maybe that should be indifferent to you rather than accepting?) than folks give him credit for. However careers are important so I can easily understand why you might choose to play it safe at work.

Think how the average ignorant person would react if they heard the captain of their plane they are flying in is a guy that wears skirts. Or as my mom would ask "if they heard the pilot of the plane they are in is a man that wears tights." She has said similar before.

To be frank most people would not care in the least, but the people running the airline might expect them to care, because the folks in charge have not experienced how little concern people actually show over other's choice of clothing. However while flying for a commercial enterprise I'd expect you to be in uniform (and probably not a skirted uniform).

This assumption that others will care is often a problem for skirted guys; people guess how others will react and feel threatened by their guess of others response, instead of learning from the collective experience of groups like this that most folks don't really care. It is in many ways like political correctness declaring that we should not have a "Christmas holiday" but should call it "Winter holiday" because it will upset hindus, moslems, buddhists... (they never seem to consider agnostics); the reality is that the other religions never seem to have any problem with Christian holidays any more than Christians do with Ramadan or Diwali.

It really sucks, cause I love flying, and I love fashion freedom, I want to give neither up, but I am sick of hiding too.

You know what I'm going to say... Don't hide! Stay professional at work, if that means uniform or abiding by a dress code to get what you want, so be it; but outside work be yourself. In the immortal words of Tubby the Tuba "be yourself or else you'll always be a nobody"*.

Have fun,


ian.

* Sorry, my quotes are not as erudite as some here - that came from a record of Hans Christian Andersen fairy tales I had as a kid


Edited to remove some of the gibberish and replace it with something bearing a slightly stronger resemblance to English. Ian.

[AMM]

If I knew I would have legal backing in the case of the FAA ruining my life, then I would wear what ever I damned well pleased.

I'm a little confused about this comment.

My understanding is that you're a pilot. I was under the impression that the FAA licensed pilots, not that they hired them. Also that it's a US government agency, with all the burocratic rigamarole (sp?) that that implies. I would assume that you do your training, you jump through the hoops, they check off the boxes, and you get your license. The same with any additional certifications.

For them to harass you they would have to (a) know about your free-time skirt-wearing, which would mean that these hidebound pencil-pushers would have to frequent the bohemian haunts you go to in skirts and (b) already be in the habit of arbitrarily refusing or revoking licenses and certifications. Burocrats are first and foremost creatures of habit, so they're not likely to suddenly start acting arbitrary and irrational just for you; at least, not unless you are already causing them and their bosses a lot of grief.

This clearly doesn't apply to employers, who can be pretty much as arbitrary as they like at hiring time. Arbitrary firing is a little harder, especially if you're in a union, but still doable. However, again, if you keep your work life and your private life separate, as most of us do, and dress "professionally" at work, I'm having trouble seeing how your free-time clothing choices are going to come to the notice of your bosses.

And if you make sure that your employer and co-workers have a good and professional impression of you, they are more likely to see your skirt-wearing as just a little eccentricity which they will prefer to overlook.


I guess it comes down to what we keep concluding in other situations: if people already have a good impression of you, and you come across as a basically sane and "normal" person, the skirt-wearing is not likely to change people's estimation of you. On the other hand, if people are already a little nervous about being around you, skirt-wearing is likely to just confirm their impression that you're a dangerous lunatic.

[AMM]

the reality is that the other religions never seem to have any problem with Christian holidays any more than Christians do with Ramadan or Diwali.

I live near New York City, where there lots of non-Christians, and I've never had the impression that the non-Christians are espcially offended by Christian holidays as such.

They do have a problem with people insisting they get involved in the religious aspects of these holidays. For example, if the public [=state-run] schools expect their children to sing Christmas carols, or public money and land is used to put up religious displays (creche scenes, for instance.) Jews in particular are sensitive to this due to the long and sorry history of Christian persecution of Jews for their non-Christian-ness.

Christmas trees, candles, and lights (which are considered to be pagan in origin) and things like Santa Claus don't seem to be much of a problem for non-Christians, perhaps because they have lost whatever religious overtones they may have had. Actually, for that very reason, many religious Christians do object to them! Well, you can't please everyone.

[Milfmog]

the reality is that the other religions never seem to have any problem with Christian holidays any more than Christians do with Ramadan or Diwali.

I live near New York City, where there lots of non-Christians, and I've never had the impression that the non-Christians are espcially offended by Christian holidays as such.

They do have a problem with people insisting they get involved in the religious aspects of these holidays.

Absolutely right, however the example I was thinking of was a city council last year declaring that they had no Christmas trees, just winter holiday trees and demanding that their staff did not wish one another a merry Christmas.

Ian.

[cessna152towser]

Think how the average ignorant person would react if they heard the captain of their plane they are flying in is a guy that wears skirts.

I always wear a kilt or skirt when I fly as a private pilot. I often carry passengers on a cost share basis and I have yet to encounter a potential passenger who was discouraged by my clothing choice.