skirtcafe.org

phathack wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:36 pm I vote for the old Southwest Airlines Uniform.

That was back in the day when being an attractive female was part of the job description.

Stu wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:58 pm
What do they mean "inclusivity drive"? Virgin has always included men in their workforce. Why say "how they identify"? We know exactly what that means - it means those who do not identify as regular, cis-gendered men, and this "drive" was never about being given a genuine choice of garments the way women have a choice.

The “inclusivity drive” is to show that they allow all people, not just men and women. Some are cis gendered men, some are cis-gendered women and some dont think they fit either category. So the inclusivity drive is to include all groups. I believe you’re reading too much into this. I think the policy means a cis-gendered man could wear a skirt if he wanted to. Take it at face value. There’s no conspiracy in this policy to discriminate against cis-gendered men.

My thoughts exactly. If you actually take the time to read their policy it basically says anyone can wear whatever they like. The gender pronouns is optional, it is not mandatory. In other words, there is no requirement for a man to tick the non binary box to access a skirt and heels!

ScotL wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 1:24 am The “inclusivity drive” is to show that they allow all people, not just men and women. Some are cis gendered men, some are cis-gendered women and some dont think they fit either category. So the inclusivity drive is to include all groups. I believe you’re reading too much into this. I think the policy means a cis-gendered man could wear a skirt if he wanted to. Take it at face value. There’s no conspiracy in this policy to discriminate against cis-gendered men.

Agreed.

My employer is also friendly in this regard. Granted, the service techs have to wear actual company issued pants for safety, but this applies to both men and women.

Administration and office personnel are free to choose what they wear regardless of gender, provided it's office appropriate.

And let's face it.... it wasn't like this (in American culture anyway...) until more companies became more trans inclusive.

I really wish those of us here would get over this "they didn't mention men in skirts specifically... so we don't count..." rhetoric.

Inclusive means just that... ALL ARE WELCOME. Including cis-gendered men that just want to wear a skirt...

moonshadow wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 12:05 pmI really wish those of us here would get over this "they didn't mention men in skirts specifically... so we don't count..." rhetoric.

It all depends on the reason behind wearing a skirt, and it's the reasoning that drives the thing. Let's be honest, the reason that nobody "gets" a bloke in a skirt wearing one for comfort or style is that nobody's ever thought about it much because they never see guys wearing skirts -- unless there's an underlying reason for it, and the reason is usually linked to sexuality which is an emotionally charged issue and engages passions both good and bad.

There is a vast gulf between the guy who wears a skirt for the simple comfort of it or because he thinks the style looks good on him and the trans-* guy who is wearing the skirt as a signifier that he's not really a guy at heart. In the former case, it becomes very much a men's rights issue; in the latter, a sexual-identity issue because the skirt has meaning other than being a functional garment.

"Because I like it" needs to be acceptable as a reason for a guy. Period.

The uniform I recall is British Caledonian. They had a TV advert showing only female attendants, with 'California Girls' altered to 'Caledonia Girls' playing over this. You could never get away with such sexist stuff nowadays.

moonshadow wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 12:05 pm

ScotL wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 1:24 am The “inclusivity drive” is to show that they allow all people, not just men and women. Some are cis gendered men, some are cis-gendered women and some dont think they fit either category. So the inclusivity drive is to include all groups. I believe you’re reading too much into this. I think the policy means a cis-gendered man could wear a skirt if he wanted to. Take it at face value. There’s no conspiracy in this policy to discriminate against cis-gendered men.

Agreed.

My employer is also friendly in this regard. Granted, the service techs have to wear actual company issued pants for safety, but this applies to both men and women.

Administration and office personnel are free to choose what they wear regardless of gender, provided it's office appropriate.

And let's face it.... it wasn't like this (in American culture anyway...) until more companies became more trans inclusive.

I really wish those of us here would get over this "they didn't mention men in skirts specifically... so we don't count..." rhetoric.

Inclusive means just that... ALL ARE WELCOME. Including cis-gendered men that just want to wear a skirt...

I think the trans movement (is that what its called?) has opened up a lot of discussion and made people contemplate the idea that not all people feel like the gender assigned at birth. Whether they believe it or not, people have now had to think about the idea of a trans individual. It has definitely led to conversations discussing the idea that we are all different people and promoted the idea that we should accept each other for who we are.

And although the trans movement has nothing to do with us, it has opened up the conversation to accept anyone for who they are.

I also have noted an undercurrent of pessimism when it comes to any advancement in men wearing skirts. Ill admit i havent been watching this space until recently, but i cant help but notice an uptick in articles on the subject and athletes and celebrities wearing skirts. We can claim these individuals are only doing it to increase interest in themselves. While thats not a wrong statement, these skirted folks raises the awareness of men wearing skirts. Just like the trans movement made people talk about gender identity. Seeing a celebrity or athlete in a skirt makes the observer think about a man wearing a skirt. They can never again say they’ve never thought about it or havent ever seen a “bloke in a skirt”

ScotL wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 1:52 am I also have noted an undercurrent of pessimism when it comes to any advancement in men wearing skirts. Ill admit i havent been watching this space until recently, but i cant help but notice an uptick in articles on the subject and athletes and celebrities wearing skirts. We can claim these individuals are only doing it to increase interest in themselves. While thats not a wrong statement, these skirted folks raises the awareness of men wearing skirts. Just like the trans movement made people talk about gender identity. Seeing a celebrity or athlete in a skirt makes the observer think about a man wearing a skirt. They can never again say they’ve never thought about it or havent ever seen a “bloke in a skirt”

The pessimism comes from upticks in interest only to be followed by long stretches of no news. It comes from two steps ahead and two steps behind - take Eddy Izzard, and how she now identifies. To me, that's a step behind because it reinforces "skirts, fun clothes, are not the domain of 'men'". It comes from the celebrity dynamic - "Well of course Brad Pitt can wear a skirt, he's a celebrity.".

As the trans movement is pushing boundaries and opening people's eyes, it is also pushing identity, and it seems the conservative movement has responded in opposite kind with a hyper-masculinism that has little basis in history - take the Candace Owens "Bring Back Manly Men" comment. I don't see this huge rift between two factions as "good" or progress. The question still remains - how will this rift impact our choices in clothes? Why can't we all get along?

Bottom line: I'm trying my best to ignore all of this stuff and live in my bubble. Trying not to care, to live my life, and slowly be myself. It's painful because I have to retrain my though process - my initial reactions of fear, uncertainty, doubt and shove them out the window. I have to stop my researching, postulating, analyzing. Let it all go. I'm not doing a good job of this.

Coder wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:19 am As the trans movement is pushing boundaries and opening people's eyes, it is also pushing identity, and it seems the conservative movement has responded in opposite kind with a hyper-masculinism that has little basis in history - take the Candace Owens "Bring Back Manly Men" comment. I don't see this huge rift between two factions as "good" or progress.

First they ignore you.
Then they laugh at you.
Then they fight you. <--- you are here
Then you win.

Coder wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:19 am

ScotL wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 1:52 am I also have noted an undercurrent of pessimism when it comes to any advancement in men wearing skirts. Ill admit i havent been watching this space until recently, but i cant help but notice an uptick in articles on the subject and athletes and celebrities wearing skirts. We can claim these individuals are only doing it to increase interest in themselves. While thats not a wrong statement, these skirted folks raises the awareness of men wearing skirts. Just like the trans movement made people talk about gender identity. Seeing a celebrity or athlete in a skirt makes the observer think about a man wearing a skirt. They can never again say they’ve never thought about it or havent ever seen a “bloke in a skirt”

The pessimism comes from upticks in interest only to be followed by long stretches of no news. It comes from two steps ahead and two steps behind - take Eddy Izzard, and how she now identifies. To me, that's a step behind because it reinforces "skirts, fun clothes, are not the domain of 'men'". It comes from the celebrity dynamic - "Well of course Brad Pitt can wear a skirt, he's a celebrity.".

As the trans movement is pushing boundaries and opening people's eyes, it is also pushing identity, and it seems the conservative movement has responded in opposite kind with a hyper-masculinism that has little basis in history - take the Candace Owens "Bring Back Manly Men" comment. I don't see this huge rift between two factions as "good" or progress. The question still remains - how will this rift impact our choices in clothes? Why can't we all get along?

Bottom line: I'm trying my best to ignore all of this stuff and live in my bubble. Trying not to care, to live my life, and slowly be myself. It's painful because I have to retrain my though process - my initial reactions of fear, uncertainty, doubt and shove them out the window. I have to stop my researching, postulating, analyzing. Let it all go. I'm not doing a good job of this.

I think its a matter of time periods. If you look for “men in skirts” articles on a daily basis, yes, there are large stretches of now articles followed by one day of Carls that went viral. But, step back and look at the number of MIS articles by month or year, and through that lens its increasing. I just cant see a topic like men wearing skirts being something mass media being interested in on a daily basis.

As to trans, I think along the lines of Newtons laws. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Trans pushes, those who oppose push back as hard. I feel the word “identity” produces a knee jerk negative opinion in some people that’s unfortunate. Someone identifies as non-binary and because sone dont understand what that person is going through, they harsh on them. Yet, we all identify as something. We just havent put that into words before because it was always male vs female and if you didnt fit you shut up.

Personally im against labeling identities because I have a feeling we think along a spectrum of “identities” and strict criteria for how you enter one box or the other are as individualized as they are nebulous. And probably change over time.

I also think the more we focus on trans the more others will associate it with us by reading These posts. The thing that drew me to this cafe was the idea that it was dedicated to men who wanted to wear skirts as men. If you asked a trans person if they could be thought of as a man who just wanted ti wear womens clothes they’d be pissed that their thoughts and feelings were belittled into such a small thing as clothing choice.

If anyone related my skirt wearing to trans, id correct them. If they didnt believe me, Id educate them on the difference between clothing choice and complexity of the trans experience. If they persist, they’re just ignorant.

I have no problem with trans, but Im glad Im not. They face an uphill battle daily to be themselves in a world where they are constantly confronted erroneously that their thoughts are either wrong, a disease or misguided. Their suicide rate is in the high twenties.

The notion that ‘Brad Pitt wire a skirt but he can because he is a celebrity’ doesn’t resonate with me. Yes, celebrities get away with things but turn it around. Ive seen articles and I posted a video from Fox that they stated ‘if manly Brad Pitt wears one, I can too”. How many people do things because their favorite celebrity did it. And at a minimum, Brad Pitt wearing a skirt, not as a joke like in a skit, play or movie, makes all readers read “a man wore a skirt”. I think we are sometimes so in the weeds, we forget that mainstream Society doesnt think about this at all.

I remain optimistic.

rode_kater wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 7:34 amFirst they ignore you.
Then they laugh at you.
Then they fight you. <--- you are here
Then you win.

Love it -- and so accurate.

Coder wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:19 amBottom line: I'm trying my best to ignore all of this stuff and live in my bubble. Trying not to care, to live my life, and slowly be myself. It's painful because I have to retrain my though process - my initial reactions of fear, uncertainty, doubt and shove them out the window. I have to stop my researching, postulating, analyzing. Let it all go. I'm not doing a good job of this.

To be honest, there are numerous times when I've detected more than a dollop of "Analysis Paralysis" in your writing, and sometimes the only answer to that is to pretty much throw caution to the wind and ad-lib what happens for better or worse -- then go and look at the results instead of meticulously dissecting every little bit in real-time. Every so often it IS alright to go with your feelings, and you can actually trust them much of the time. Furthermore, the act of real-time analysis of the proceedings detracts from the experience of life.

steamman wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:46 am If you actually take the time to read their policy it basically says anyone can wear whatever they like. The gender pronouns is optional, it is not mandatory. In other words, there is no requirement for a man to tick the non binary box to access a skirt and heels!

Yeah, I noticed this, too, in the first article I read about this. The policy was described as everyone being able to choose whatever version of the uniform they want, with optional pronoun pins.

I normally hate the declare your pronouns thing, but if I worked there, I'd likely get a set of the female skirted uniform (with whatever the manliest version of the top I'd be allowed to wear with it) in addition to my existing male uniforms, and get the "he/him" pin, but only wear the pin when in the skirted uniform.

I'd love to know what the full range of options are, and how much mix and match is allowed. The strictest uniform policy I've had at a job was in fast food, where it was the work shirt and hat (company logo and all), with black pants and black shoes that you supplied yourself.

Dust wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:42 pm I normally hate the declare your pronouns thing, but if I worked there, I'd likely get a set of the female skirted uniform (with whatever the manliest version of the top I'd be allowed to wear with it) in addition to my existing male uniforms, and get the "he/him" pin, but only wear the pin when in the skirted uniform.

I have only once been asked for my "pronouns" and I responded with "none". If they want to give me a badge bearing the pronoun "none", fine.

If I had to choose between he/him/ she/her and they/them, I would go for she/her - just to p*** them off.

As I generally point out, human beings have names, not pronouns.

crfriend wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:43 am Back to being serious... Am I the sole remaining member of my class (straight hetero-normative male) who happens to prefer skirts as a style choice not a signifier of something else?

No, you're not alone (Well, me it's more like "because I want/like it" than "style choice")

crfriend wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:41 pm

rode_kater wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:21 pm(...) And the people who don't know you, well, does it matter what they think?

(...) I do not necessarily care about what those who don't know me think -- except in situations like job interviews, potential opportunities for dating, and a whole lot of other scenarii where first impressions count for vastly more than they should.

I completely agree with you on that point, Carl!
If "man in skirt" implies "LGBT signifier", then yes what others (you don't know) think about you is important. It could ruin your chances to meet a woman who you could have a romantic relationship with. That's the most important reason - but not the only one - why I did draw back after I wore skirt publicly a few times in 2020. Just adding my two cents about what could explain why men are afraid to wear skirts, especially straight ones.