Votes Matter ... or Do They?

[Elisabetta]

There are only a few rules here at the SkirtCafe

1. ABOVE ALL: Respect for others at all times. No profanity/swearing. No personal insults.
2. No politics, unless related to skirts/kilts. No religion, unless related to skirts/kilts. These topics were banned because they lead to endless flame wars.
3. SkirtCafe is a family-friendly fashion forum. No adult material. No discussion of clothing not meant to be seen in public, unless it affects clothing that IS meant to be seen. Underwear is NOT public fashion.
4. Feel free to post pictures suitable for public display. Indecent or immodest pictures will be removed, regardless of intent.
5. No female screen names (unless you are a woman). We are committed to gender honesty.
6. No discussion of artificial body parts or pieces of clothing meant for body parts that men do not have. That is not men's fashion.
7. Please, posts need to be in English. We unfortunately do not have the resources to deal with non-English language posts. There are a variety of skirted men's on-line communities in other languages.
8. If you think another member has broken the rules or has otherwise done something out of line, please consider sending email or a private message a moderator. Moderators have the final say on what is or is not appropriate on SkirtCafe. Moderators are: Bob, crfriend, Uncle Al, and Milfmog.

Fred

They're banned unless you want to play favorites then they're allowed. I'm going to find some other place to join. You Take Care Fred. See you on Facebook my friend.

[crfriend]

They're banned unless you want to play favorites then they're allowed.

Robust debate -- so long as it stays on-point and is handled with dignity and respect -- is essential as part of any leaning process. The key there is to remain respectful of one's "opponent" in a debate and to not attack the person in question. That's respect, and that's where I tend to draw the line because failure of respect is when things start to spiral out of control very badly and things go from robust -- even passionate -- debate to an unseemly brawl. It's the latter which causes all the trouble.

Quite honestly, if we tried to keep things so sanitary that nobody could possibly be offended by anything the forum would turn into Milquetoast in no time flat and folks would drift away because there wouldn't be anything interesting to read. We are all complex people, think in many myriad ways, have entirely different life-experiences, and have entirely different opinions on things. Expressing all of those facets is what make any gathering place interesting. There are only so many times and so many ways that one can -- quite honestly -- say, "I ventured out in a skirt today and nothing happened." without it getting deathly dull, and to limit conversation to that (or similar themes) would ultimately cheapen the place.

As in any polite society, if something offends one, it is up to the person so offended to either challenge the thesis which offended them (NOT the individual) or mentally put the matter on "ignore". Ideas are fair game, individuals and personalities are not.

[moonshadow]

My only real puzzle with this thread is it's location. As per the header in "In the News / Advocacy" it says it's "Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues."

Seems this would have been better placed off topic. I've been known to take a bite of the politic pie a few times, on this site and off, and generally I find when talking politics, it's like drinking a glass of chocolate milk too fast. It's generally pleasurable when it's going down, but drink too much and my stomach starts to hurt. I have avoided purchasing subscription TV because I've grown so tired of cable news channels, I let my paper subscription slide because reading it made me feel like the whole world is out to get me, I left facebook because it was just constant politics and opinions, and now it seems to have a growing presence on this site.

It's easy enough to weed out threads that give me indigestion when there all in one neat little place (in off topic), however in this particular board I'm accustomed to actually seeing articles of news related to men's fashion freedom and gender equality issues.

Now because people were getting offended in the transgender thread, I have nixed any discussion on my part about transgender issues, despite my recent understanding of how the issues very much tie into any non-kilt, yet skirt wearing man.

I understand that there is only so much that can be discussed with regards to skirts, but honestly, the sun doesn't rise and set with Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton. There are plenty of other frankly non-political subjects to discuss. I know I've rather enjoyed our talks about bridges, electricity, reading stories that we get into in our day to day lives. In the "Moon Phases" thread I try to keep it lively by adding little stories with each of the photo's. I personally loved it when threads I start went off the rails on account of a photo of a bridge, or something to that effect. Now it gets a couple of likes, but actual discussion has all but ceased on the thread to the point where it's no longer interesting, and not worth the hour of time it takes to compile the stories. I venture a guess that many member's are not participating in my threads any longer because I probably made some political comment that pissed them off (I do tend to be somewhat of a radical). And I regret that if that's the case.

Even with regards to politics and religion, there are plenty of male skirt topics that can be discussed in such context, and it's perfectly within the rules. I know I enjoy the study of religion, and there are some very intelligent religious minds on this site that have given me a lot to think about when it comes to men wearing skirts and the religious customs of our world.

I'm going to level with you all, Jenn's involvement on this thread came as a result of a question she asked me the other day (in the real world). She said "I notice you haven't been on skirt cafe much in the last few days, why's that?". I just replied "It's just turned too political lately, I'll be glad when these elections are over so everything can get back to normal, I'm so sick of hearing about it EEEEEEEVVVEEEEEEERRRRRRYYYYYYYWWWHHEEEEEERRRREEEEE!" So I suppose she took it among her self to post on this thread so as to call out that perhaps we are getting a little carried away. There's a reason why I only call Dad about once every three of four months... because ALL he wants to talk is politics.... all of the time. I'd really hate to chalk skirt cafe off to just another forum I used to visit for that reason because I've really enjoyed my membership here thus far.

So let me close this by saying, if I have upset anyone on this board at any time, I do apologize and likewise there have been a few comments made here and there that have rubbed me the wrong way, and I'll let it go. As I'm wiping my slate clean, have sought forgiveness, I shall henceforth refrain from any and all non-skirt related political or religious discussions on this site. All that said, if my post are continuously ignored on other topics, then frankly, that's pretty boring on my part and I'll probably just exit stage left.

We shall see.

I remain... unsubscribed from this thread...
-Moon Shadow

P.S. If there is one among us reading this who I have severely offended at some point or another, by all means feel free to PM me the grievance so I may issue a proper personal apology as it was never my intention to make a foe. I'm here to make friends, not drama. With regards to drama, my cup runneth full in the real world.

[crfriend]

My only real puzzle with this thread is it's location. As per the header in "In the News / Advocacy" it says it's "Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues."

The answer appears in the original post to this thread, which was spun off from another one back on 2016-10-11 that was on-topic for this section but which went off the rails.

I suppose I should have moved it "way back when" in an attempt to better classify it, but that's ultimately 20/20 hindsight. I have been accused of many things in the past, but being perfect has never been one of them.

[Elisabetta]

My only real puzzle with this thread is it's location. As per the header in "In the News / Advocacy" it says it's "Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues."

Seems this would have been better placed off topic. I've been known to take a bite of the politic pie a few times, on this site and off, and generally I find when talking politics, it's like drinking a glass of chocolate milk too fast. It's generally pleasurable when it's going down, but drink too much and my stomach starts to hurt. I have avoided purchasing subscription TV because I've grown so tired of cable news channels, I let my paper subscription slide because reading it made me feel like the whole world is out to get me, I left facebook because it was just constant politics and opinions, and now it seems to have a growing presence on this site.

It's easy enough to weed out threads that give me indigestion when there all in one neat little place (in off topic), however in this particular board I'm accustomed to actually seeing articles of news related to men's fashion freedom and gender equality issues.

Now because people were getting offended in the transgender thread, I have nixed any discussion on my part about transgender issues, despite my recent understanding of how the issues very much tie into any non-kilt, yet skirt wearing man.

I understand that there is only so much that can be discussed with regards to skirts, but honestly, the sun doesn't rise and set with Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton. There are plenty of other frankly non-political subjects to discuss. I know I've rather enjoyed our talks about bridges, electricity, reading stories that we get into in our day to day lives. In the "Moon Phases" thread I try to keep it lively by adding little stories with each of the photo's. I personally loved it when threads I start went off the rails on account of a photo of a bridge, or something to that effect. Now it gets a couple of likes, but actual discussion has all but ceased on the thread to the point where it's no longer interesting, and not worth the hour of time it takes to compile the stories. I venture a guess that many member's are not participating in my threads any longer because I probably made some political comment that pissed them off (I do tend to be somewhat of a radical). And I regret that if that's the case.

Even with regards to politics and religion, there are plenty of male skirt topics that can be discussed in such context, and it's perfectly within the rules. I know I enjoy the study of religion, and there are some very intelligent religious minds on this site that have given me a lot to think about when it comes to men wearing skirts and the religious customs of our world.

I'm going to level with you all, Jenn's involvement on this thread came as a result of a question she asked me the other day (in the real world). She said "I notice you haven't been on skirt cafe much in the last few days, why's that?". I just replied "It's just turned too political lately, I'll be glad when these elections are over so everything can get back to normal, I'm so sick of hearing about it EEEEEEEVVVEEEEEEERRRRRRYYYYYYYWWWHHEEEEEERRRREEEEE!" So I suppose she took it among her self to post on this thread so as to call out that perhaps we are getting a little carried away. There's a reason why I only call Dad about once every three of four months... because ALL he wants to talk is politics.... all of the time. I'd really hate to chalk skirt cafe off to just another forum I used to visit for that reason because I've really enjoyed my membership here thus far.

So let me close this by saying, if I have upset anyone on this board at any time, I do apologize and likewise there have been a few comments made here and there that have rubbed me the wrong way, and I'll let it go. As I'm wiping my slate clean, have sought forgiveness, I shall henceforth refrain from any and all non-skirt related political or religious discussions on this site. All that said, if my post are continuously ignored on other topics, then frankly, that's pretty boring on my part and I'll probably just exit stage left.

We shall see.

I remain... unsubscribed from this thread...
-Moon Shadow

P.S. If there is one among us reading this who I have severely offended at some point or another, by all means feel free to PM me the grievance so I may issue a proper personal apology as it was never my intention to make a foe. I'm here to make friends, not drama. With regards to drama, my cup runneth full in the real world.

SOMEONE WHOSE CLEARLY SEES MY POINT. THANK YOU MOON THANK YOU!!!!!!!

[Elisabetta]

They're banned unless you want to play favorites then they're allowed.

Robust debate -- so long as it stays on-point and is handled with dignity and respect -- is essential as part of any leaning process. The key there is to remain respectful of one's "opponent" in a debate and to not attack the person in question. That's respect, and that's where I tend to draw the line because failure of respect is when things start to spiral out of control very badly and things go from robust -- even passionate -- debate to an unseemly brawl. It's the latter which causes all the trouble.

Quite honestly, if we tried to keep things so sanitary that nobody could possibly be offended by anything the forum would turn into Milquetoast in no time flat and folks would drift away because there wouldn't be anything interesting to read. We are all complex people, think in many myriad ways, have entirely different life-experiences, and have entirely different opinions on things. Expressing all of those facets is what make any gathering place interesting. There are only so many times and so many ways that one can -- quite honestly -- say, "I ventured out in a skirt today and nothing happened." without it getting deathly dull, and to limit conversation to that (or similar themes) would ultimately cheapen the place.

As in any polite society, if something offends one, it is up to the person so offended to either challenge the thesis which offended them (NOT the individual) or mentally put the matter on "ignore". Ideas are fair game, individuals and personalities are not.

I'm not offended however I will fire back this. If you're going to allow Political talk and Religion you need to fix the forums rules plain and simple. I understand people are not perfect hell I am not perfect but don't make Forum Rules if you have no place in making members follow them. Just Saying. Carry On Folks!

[Stevie D]

I'm not offended however I will fire back this. If you're going to allow Political talk and Religion you need to fix the forums rules plain and simple. I understand people are not perfect hell I am not perfect but don't make Forum Rules if you have no place in making members follow them. Just Saying. Carry On Folks!

Jenn - I'm glad to see you are still here.

Perhaps you are right in thinking that the rules need to be changed, or at least rendered more flexible. I think I am right in saying that they have been in place, unchanged, for many years, and as I hinted at in this post, I think the focus of the Cafe has become somewhat broader in that time. With the restraint and decorum that most people show on here, I think it is a good thing. It allows us to debate like responsible adults in a mature setting. Perhaps the rules need tweaking slightly to reflect that?

If there is a topic or thread which people do not wish to follow or take part in, then it is easy enough for them not to. We always have that choice!

[Elisabetta]

I'm not offended however I will fire back this. If you're going to allow Political talk and Religion you need to fix the forums rules plain and simple. I understand people are not perfect hell I am not perfect but don't make Forum Rules if you have no place in making members follow them. Just Saying. Carry On Folks!

Jenn - I'm glad to see you are still here.

Perhaps you are right in thinking that the rules need to be changed, or at least rendered more flexible. I think I am right in saying that they have been in place, unchanged, for many years, and as I hinted at in this post, I think the focus of the Cafe has become somewhat broader in that time. With the restraint and decorum that most people show on here, I think it is a good thing. It allows us to debate like responsible adults in a mature setting. Perhaps the rules need tweaking slightly to reflect that?

If there is a topic or thread which people do not wish to follow or take part in, then it is easy enough for them not to. We always have that choice!

I understand we all have opinions I'm just saying that I thought it was stated in rules we couldn't speak of politics then its on the forums and rather than it being in off topic it's in News and Advocacy. I'm not complaining Stevie just saying that not everyone likes when Politics rise for the same reasons the rules states which is Flame Wars. We're all adults so yes it's nice to have nice discussions in regards to the certain things that interest people. Politics isn't my cup of tea. I was simply asking a question in my earlier post not to stir the pot but to ask if the Forum Rules still apply to us not speaking of Politics on the Forums or if it's been overlooked. If it's allowed the Rules indeed should be fixed to adjust that. I like my place here on the forums I love interacting and giving my opinions on matters. Just like giving my opinion to this one. Maybe this whole thread can be moved to the Off Topics section so that when we click on News and Advocacy we can read about that and not Politics.

[crfriend]

It's worth recalling that this forum is an imperfect part of an imperfect world, populated by imperfect people. Yes, the "rules" state a categorical "NO", but very, very, few things in life are so binary.

The gradual relaxation of the hard-and-fast rule was my idea, but I am unwilling to necessarily ease off on the "rule" because that will place more limits on things than we actually have now. As it stands, any one of the moderation team can step on any political or religious thread for any reason, or not if they so decide. The general consensus amongst the team is that so long as decorum is maintained we are entirely liable to let things progress in a natural fashion and not be "enforcers". Occasionally you'll see one of us actually speak with the power and force of our position within the community, but fortunately that's been fairly rare, and the reason it's pretty rare is that most of the community know how to behave in public. The "rules" allow the moderation team to step on things quickly if they start to go south; loosening the "rules" could well make matters worse because it's human nature to "push the boundaries" (we're guys who wear skirts -- we're pushing hard on that one already).

Every so often we do discuss whether changes should be made to the legacy rules, and usually the end result is that we really see no reason to do so because things here are working "well enough".

So, there's a slight peek behind the curtains about why things here are the way they are. If things get bad, we have the power to stop it in its tracks; that's also a power we do not necessarily like invoking because the next wail will be that of editorial bias or outright censorship.

[Sinned]

Jenn, Moon, as an outsider so to speak I have learned a lot about the machinations that are going on and in particular what definitely does NOT get into any of our news bulletins. By all means if the thread doesn't interest you then don't open it and read it. There are threads that I have ignored in the past - mainly about guns about which the US and GB have completely different attitudes. I have been enriched by what has been discussed and when I have a little more time I will go through it all again and research things that I don't understand. I think that the main point of the rules was that in the early days they were a blunt weapon for keeping out troublemakers and we still need a mechanism to do that. I actually like the relaxed discussion content and have learned a lot. So I support the current stand by Carl, UA and the rest.

[moonshadow]

By all means if the thread doesn't interest you then don't open it and read it.

Okay then. I hope to see the same sentiment and leniency when someone mentions a bra or crossdressing, or any other matter that one person or another finds offensive.

They say "well we don't want this to become another crossdressing site", that's fine I can respect that. I dread it becoming an overly political site.

I've had my chops busted a few times on here (interestingly never by a moderator) on various issues, and I've seen others chops busted for this or that. It's somewhat confusing. Then those who call out people for thread drift or breaking other rules go right along and break rules themselves

It's the principle of the matter. It's not so much the discussion. Hey you all want to solve the world's problems... have at it. But don't call others out because they said something that you feel isnt the in the theme of the site.

And I'm not mentioning names because I don't want this to get personal.

[Elisabetta]

Jenn, Moon, as an outsider so to speak I have learned a lot about the machinations that are going on and in particular what definitely does NOT get into any of our news bulletins. By all means if the thread doesn't interest you then don't open it and read it. There are threads that I have ignored in the past - mainly about guns about which the US and GB have completely different attitudes. I have been enriched by what has been discussed and when I have a little more time I will go through it all again and research things that I don't understand. I think that the main point of the rules was that in the early days they were a blunt weapon for keeping out troublemakers and we still need a mechanism to do that. I actually like the relaxed discussion content and have learned a lot. So I support the current stand by Carl, UA and the rest.

That's fine I'll unfollow the threads. I'll take my husband with me too. Moon came here before I did to get insight on guys wearing skirts so he could come out with wanting to wear them. I've come to support but the arrogance of people on this site has gotten me to the point now where I don't even want to be a part of it. I do also believe Uncle Al clapped for me and quoted when I simply asked the original question. I'm sure he agrees that this post shouldn't be here either way there's a few post made by several people you included that I don't care to read either but I'm not as rude as to call it out. I was and clearly stated over and over and over again that I was simply asking a question in regards to why one things allowed but as Moon stated below its not fair others are told the thou shall not's but when it comes to others it's okay..

[crfriend]

Okay then. I hope to see the same sentiment and leniency when someone mentions a bra or crossdressing, or any other matter that one person or another finds offensive.

That will depend on how it all plays out. That particular item really needs to be a non-negotiable one as it's the raison d'etre of the forum.

I dread it becoming an overly political site.

That'll get squashed if it looks like that's going to happen, and I rather doubt it will. The intent is to remain true to the mission but to allow some added depth to be brought in.

I've had my chops busted a few times on here (interestingly never by a moderator) on various issues, and I've seen others chops busted for this or that. It's somewhat confusing. Then those who call out people for thread drift or breaking other rules go right along and break rules themselves

The moderators don't bust chops (save for each others' on occasion); we're more subtle than that. If somebody "needs a talking to" that'll happen by way of e-mail unless something truly egregious happened in which case we have been known to make an object lesson of it.

Does anybody want my job?

[Tor]

Carl, on changing the rules, I'd thought about ways to adjust the rules to more clearly reflect the current stance, but mostly gave up on them for the same reason you gave before I saw your post. One thought I had which might work would be to bold the first part of rule 1, to reflect its importance in how and when moderator authority gets invoked.

I do agree that we need the off-topic discussion to keep this forum going, at least until the size of this little band grows a good bit - at which point I fear we will lose many of the current group, quite possibly including me. Perhaps there needn't be quite so much political discussion, but that seems to be the biggest hot topic in the US right now. What is it now, only a couple weeks until that quiets down again - or hopefully so?

[crfriend]

One thought I had which might work would be to bold the first part of rule 1, to reflect its importance in how and when moderator authority gets invoked.

Every so often I go back and re-read, with a critical eye, the rules and evaluate whether there is reason enough to warrant changing them. Being a bit of an old-school conservative, if what's working continues to work, I am inclined to leave well enough alone. Having "room to dance", and to do so with a deft hand, is important in this regard, and if the rules are continually morphing around nobody really has much of a clue in what they're allowed to do -- and that's when things go really wrong. Operating by rote -- computer-style -- is certainly one way to do things, but if we're to do that the moderators become little more than babysitters with keyword-filters in place and who automatically nuke or shut down posts that have those keywords in them. Nuance then becomes impossible, and most of the genius in the world is in the nuance of things.

I do agree that we need the off-topic discussion to keep this forum going, at least until the size of this little band grows a good bit - at which point I fear we will lose many of the current group, quite possibly including me.

If somehow all of a sudden is became not just accepted but normal for men to wear skirts on a whim then the forum would no longer have a reason to exist and would likely be shut down, much as in the same way that wireless Morse was discontinued by the US Coast Guard a number of years ago -- and which triggered a massive amount of Morse traffic on the night in question, mostly from old-timers saying goodbye. I hope to see that happen here someday, although for happier reasons than the one above.

Note that many of whom I term as The Pioneers have moved on, their mission having succeeded and the message gotten out. Bless them for that, for we here really do stand upon the shoulders of giants.

Perhaps there needn't be quite so much political discussion, but that seems to be the biggest hot topic in the US right now. What is it now, only a couple weeks until that quiets down again - or hopefully so?

I'm guessing it'll be a couple of months at least before the dust settles. Recall that no matter which way the thing goes roughly half of the population is going to be royally torqued off; this is going to make Brexit look like an afternoon tea. I'm just hoping that everybody can retain their composure here because I rather like this little slice of humanity -- and I can be a bit of a curmudgeon. If I didn't like it here, and didn't have high hopes for the future I would have decamped years ago.