skirtcafe.org

And that will not happen in our lifetimes.

Those "Social constructs" that society generated long before any of us were born, came about for a number of practical reasons. Most of those reasons still exist in some fashion (pun intended). Wishing and hoping is not going to change the fact that a significant portion of society will recoil when they see a man wearing what they primarily consider to be the clothing of the other gender.

Granted, many mature people will be openly accepting, and we will continue to tell ourselves that we are asserting our choice to wear what we blithly call, "unbifurcated" garments. Why are we still playing massive semantic games regarding phraseology, when society is unsweyed?

If in fact, we have all the power of the male patricarchy as feminists love to assert, then we should be able to wear whatever we wish without consernation. Many of us do, while some still fear to.

So, we continue to wear skirts, or unbifurcated garments or whatever. Others take it a few steps beyond and tell us they are "women trapped in mens bodies." I have no doubt about the sincerity of their feelings. Nor would I ever deny to them, that right. However, the reality is that even after years of tricking bodies with tesosterone blocking drugs, and flooding the system with feminine hormones to induce such traits. Then, significant surgery to implant brest enlargments, and construction of alternate sexual characturistics. None of this changes the fact that every cell in their body carries an X and a Y chromosome. Nor does it alter their underlying sexual attraction, which is directed towards those with two X chromosomes.

Nor does any of the modern medicines and its treatments well address the high depression and suicide rate in such individuals. Therein lies the problem. Biology is always there to remind one that no matter how well the adaptation, they are not the XX chromosome version.

I have wondered from time to time, what the actual number of people who use this site are of the mindset that the "skirt" as it is known in the popular vernacular, is a superior lower half garment for males, contrasted with trousers. Compared with those of us that wear Skirts and other items of XX chromosomal individuals for whatever reason. (in my case, it started as a sexual dare about 43 year ago and evolved from there)

But, I digress.

The esoteric question here is about men wearing womens clothing. Or a very specific garment. It is worth pointing out that in the history of the world, there has never been a civilization were XY Chromosomal individuals freely wore the same (specialized) garments of the opposite sex (XX Chromosome). Socologically, it is unlikely that it will ever be widely accepted, no matter what we wish. The reality is that Socity is made of a diverse group of individuals who constantly make value judgements of other individuals. While I cannot speak to historical Rome, or many other cultures, in todays culture, rejection is a sad reality. The best we can do is acknowledge that reality and go on with our lives as best we can.

whorton wrote:If in fact, we have all the power of the male patricarchy as feminists love to assert, then we should be able to wear whatever we wish without consernation. Many of us do, while some still fear to.

It is worth pointing out that in the history of the world, there has never been a civilization were XY Chromosomal individuals freely wore the same (specialized) garments of the opposite sex (XX Chromosome). Socologically, it is unlikely that it will ever be widely accepted, no matter what we wish. The reality is that Socity is made of a diverse group of individuals who constantly make value judgements of other individuals. While I cannot speak to historical Rome, or many other cultures, in todays culture, rejection is a sad reality. The best we can do is acknowledge that reality and go on with our lives as best we can.

Some very valid points there, many of which I have pondered over myself and drawn similar conclusions. One thing I would point out is that the only hostility I have ever received has been 100% from men. It seems that they are very protective of their patriarchy! It is only ever men that shout out loudly from car windows, and almost always unintelligibly at that, when I'm walking along the street. Whilst a few women are sometime inquisitive, probably around 85% to 90% of questions, including about sexuality, come from men. Whilst a few are genuinely curious, many strike up a conversation, it would seem, to surreptitiously point out that my behaviour is letting the side down. It is these behaviours and opinions that just make me more resolute in dressing the way I do. My clothes, of course, allow me to visibly distance myself from the men of that sort of mentality, so why wouldn't I continue to wear them?

Picking up on your point that

whorton wrote:there has never been a civilization were XY Chromosomal individuals freely wore the same (specialized) garments of the opposite sex (XX Chromosome).

then you might find this article interesting about the attempts at gender neutral clothing and what was actually created:
https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainme ... ck/390168/

SkirtsDad wrote:...One thing I would point out is that the only hostility I have ever received has been 100% from men. It seems that they are very protective of their patriarchy! It is only ever men that shout out loudly from car windows, and almost always unintelligibly at that, when I'm walking along the street. Whilst a few women are sometime inquisitive, probably around 85% to 90% of questions, including about sexuality, come from men...

I sometimes think that wearing skirts, dresses, tights, heels, and so forth just seems more natural to women, and this results in a, "Sure, why not?" response. Also, some women who enjoy a great variety of things to wear consider men's clothing boring and are happy to see some variety.

Men, however, are more apt to view wearing skirts and so forth as reneging their status as the stronger sex.

(Which men may or may not be, in all nuances, but it's been a belief for many thousands of years and remains widespread.)

Jim wrote:Words are continually changing their meaning. We might just encourage the mistake many of us have run into. If a man wears a skirt, it's a "kilt".

Funnily enough, even if a guy wears a dress, with an unbuttoned shirt over it, he still will be referred to as wearing a "kilt" by some people. Happened to me.

-J

Caultron wrote:I sometimes think that wearing skirts, dresses, tights, heels, and so forth just seems more natural to women, and this results in a, "Sure, why not?" response. Also, some women who enjoy a great variety of things to wear consider men's clothing boring and are happy to see some variety.

Men, however, are more apt to view wearing skirts and so forth as reneging their status as the stronger sex.

I think this is true. It certainly seems to be the case, judging by what I have read on the Internet. My own experience is limited, since people almost never talk to me about my skirts, but I get that impression from people's reactions.

SkirtsDad wrote:A bit of bedtime reading for some perhaps:

"The maintenance of gender categories depends on reinforcement in day-to-day
behavior. Male and female could not persist as structurally important social categories if
we did not perform enough gendered and gendering behavior – if distinct groups of people did
not continue to act like “women” and like “men.” In other words, the gender order and the social
categories – male and female – on which it rests exist in virtue of social practice." ...

I would have my suspicions about authors who don't even know the difference between sex and gender or are so careless that they get their basic terminology wrong. "Male and female" refer to biological sex, "Masculine and feminine" would be the correct words for gender. This isn't because of some new-fangled redefinition of the terms, biologists and most English dictionaries have drawn that distinction for years

Daryl wrote:The last thing anyone committed to the idea of "transgender" should want is to de-gender things, because without markers of gender there would be no way to "present" or "express" gender and thus no way to be transgender.

And this is the precise spot where the interests of the community of men in Skirt Cafe conflict with the interests of the trans community. Those interests don't merely sit with each other uneasily. They are in direct opposition to each other. Trans requires the maintenance of gender norms while equality requires the destruction of gender norms.

If the three underlying concepts of sex, gender and gender expression are distinguished from each other, there is no conflict between transpeople and people who wear skirts for other reasons.

Society has erroneously linked gender to biological sex and then drawn up what it sees as gender norms (other gender norms are available in other societies).  This has produced a chain of connections:

Sex  =X=  Gender  =Y=  Gender expression (norms)

...where links X and Y are the false links imposed by society.


Transpeople demonstrate that link X is incorrect, they break the false chain at X but continue to maintain the link Y and dress according to their gender.  Male skirt wearers break the false chain at Y and dress according to their personal preferences, they do not care about link X because it is not relevant to them.

The difficulties arise when people wrongly use the chain to insist that your gender expression, or simply your mode of dress, ought to align with your sex - or, worse still, use the chain backwards to suggest that your mode of dress says something about your gender or your sex.  Transpeople maintain link Y and cis-gendered skirt wearers maintain link X - but neither of them created these links and neither of them should be generating conflict by trying to impose false links on the other.

skirtyscot wrote:

Caultron wrote:I sometimes think that wearing skirts, dresses, tights, heels, and so forth just seems more natural to women, and this results in a, "Sure, why not?" response. Also, some women who enjoy a great variety of things to wear consider men's clothing boring and are happy to see some variety.

Men, however, are more apt to view wearing skirts and so forth as reneging their status as the stronger sex.

I think this is true. It certainly seems to be the case, judging by what I have read on the Internet. My own experience is limited, since people almost never talk to me about my skirts, but I get that impression from people's reactions.

It's true that while I occasionally get a compliment about a skirt outfit, I very seldom get a compliment about a skirt. In fact, I get a lot more, "I like your shoes," (3" heels) than, "I like your skirt."

I get a lot more compliments about utility kilts, though, and in fact one this morning (a woman, "Love your kilt!")

Again, same here. My two plain kilts - one blue denim, one black cotton - garner compliments easily. My colleagues have seen me in them, and before any office night out I can be pretty sure that one of the women will ask if I will be wearing my kilt. One of these days I just have to reply "No, I thought I'd wear a skirt this time instead, to see if you like it".

I found this web page article on MENS skirt length, written in 2010. Beneath the article there is a comment section with 624 comments. I read a majority of the comments. Of course you got your extremes of "yuck never ever" and "anything goes".
I found it interesting there was a significant amount that were ok with kilts but not skirts.

Personally I don't want to wear women's clothing, I just want to have access to skirts. Most women s clothing is too flimsy, delicate, and cheaply made. I want something that I don't have to stress about tearing or getting dirty. ( I do that enough now with my tartan kilts and I hate it.) So there one disadvantage to the kilt.
Before I forget here is the link.

http://www.thesartorialist.com/photos/a ... nt-8670177

misha, I don't really find women's clothes cheaply made, not even from the mainstream supermarkets. Delicate, light, thinner material and softer maybe but then those are the qualities that I find desirable. Conversely I find men's clothes tedious, thicker material and no better made. The designs hardly inspire and just don't fit me very well. But then that's just my take on it and others may not agree. If I'm doing something that involves possible damage to clothes or getting dirty then I have clothes that have been set apart for that purpose and can, if necessary, be disposed of. I very rarely tear seams or cloth because I try to use items that fit as opposed to cover.

As to the article, well there wasn't really one, just a few pictures and masses of the expected comments. The looks were good though.

As an aside MOH and I went shopping the other day ans since it was sunny with temperatures in the 70's I wore a cami which she commented on as she said I was wearing women's clothes. I said not as the top was mine and hence a man's. She was not convinced. Needless I received no stares or comments about it from anyone else.

Sinned wrote:misha, I don't really find women's clothes cheaply made, not even from the mainstream supermarkets. Delicate, light, thinner material and softer maybe but then those are the qualities that I find desirable. Conversely I find men's clothes tedious, thicker material and no better made.

Perhaps we are more fortunate in this part of the world. I have never had an issue with quality. The fabrics cover the whole range from delicate to 'industrial' canvas that is far thicker than any jeans I have owned, probably on account that the range of movement isn't required. It might also be that nearly always I am buying second hand so perhaps current fashion isn't for heavy materials.

Sinned wrote:As to the article, well there wasn't really one, just a few pictures and masses of the expected comments. The looks were good though.

The outfits were absolutely 'men in skirts', just the sort of look we might advocate here, I thought. Quite a city look, and rather on the dark side for myself so I don't expect me to be fashioning it just yet.

Sinned wrote:As an aside MOH and I went shopping the other day ans since it was sunny with temperatures in the 70's I wore a cami which she commented on as she said I was wearing women's clothes. I said not as the top was mine and hence a man's. She was not convinced. Needless I received no stares or comments about it from anyone else.

It is funny the way some people point things out as though you don't already know lol. Whilst I generally don't pay attention to if people are staring or not, I do think that over the five years or so that I've been skirt wearing daily that people, on the whole, care less and less about people not following the 'rules'.

I find these discussions of gender, sexuality, and such fascinating. Would it be worthwhile to start a thread discussing this?

BTW, a preference for, or liking of, skirts, seems to be an independent variable, overlaping different categories. Amongst men this includes kilties and free stylers, for example. As well as those who sew their own creations.

And some women are also Skirtonians, though most women seem to prefer trousers.

I may be going off the thread here..It is now late May and sunny days and warmer temperatures

are with us . Warm enough for me to wear my favourite summer skirts with only a shirt and

a traditional male sports jacket. ...Very comfortable for me.

I am seeing more ladies wearing light weight summer dresses or skirts with bare legs and

no tights or leggings.

Am I correct in assuming that both the male and female gender are happy to wear skirts

and dresses out of doors in suitable temperatures ?

If the day to day temperature remained stable would this style of attire become more popular ?

In traditionally warmer climates the male does traditionally wear his own style of skirt.

When the weather turns slightly colder out in the wild , I am sure both the female and I

will slightly change our style of attire. At this warmer time the higher proportion of males

have turned to wearing shorts. Simply because this is their traditional wear for warmer weather.

I feel that for me ,this current change in style of attire is rather more for practical comfort

than for an ego trip.......weeladdie

weeladdie18 wrote:I am not clear what type of reply the O.P. was expecting to this thread....I have been happy and comfortable wearing my skirts

for years . .... I have never worked out why I am comfortable wearing the garment known as a skirt.

I have to agree, it wasn't clear what type of reply the O.P. was expecting. I looked at the title of the thread, and thought that if this was a reference to free styling, the answer is now.

As for liking skirts, I find it difficult to articulate why. It's not just the physical comfort, nor the added variety to one's wardrobe, but a certain preference that is hard describe-and if you don't share this preference, then I probably can't explain it to you.