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Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:11 pm If there is a recognized authority on what's fashionable and therefore acceptable for a person to wear it's Vogue magazine.

It's April 2022 issue spotlights Beyond Gender: Fashion's New Freedom. The Table of Contents refers to the article as Code Breakers: The days of gendered dressing are over. The article's narrative, what little there is, continues in the same vein and then let's the pictures speak for themselves. Most of the photos show men and women, generally paired up, in skirts, dresses and trousers with adjoining photos of the same subjects except the pairs have swapped outfits.

There you have it. Both men and women are equally free to wear whatever in the world they please. So, could we please dispense with all of the whining, groaning, bitching and moaning about how unfair the (developed) world is that women get to wear what they please and us poor, downtrodden men don't? Because that simply isn't the case anymore.

I realize that this thread has taken a different turn with the discussion of women and mens sports and other issue, but please pardon me while I go back to the OP's original thoughts.

Even though fashion magazines have stated that the norms regarding gendered dressing have been relaxed, 98 percent of men will not care because most of them are satisfied with their drab uncomfortable clothing. Other men that may want to venture out into freestyle fashion will not because they are afraid that they will be perceived as homosexual, even though homosexual men for the most part do not incorporate items from women's fashion, they still adhere to this age-old misconception. That is why when some men hug other men or say something that may be interpreted as feminine, they sometimes make horrible statements like "no homo". It is really a sad situation because these men are the cause of oppression and they will never get in touch with their true self. Their entire life revolves around living in the "man box" that society has created for them and making statements that affirm that their "Man Card" is still valid. They go though life with a purpose to validate their masculinity at every chance possible.

The problem in a nutshell is that from the time when a male child is born they are socialized to believe that anything feminine or associated with women is inferior. Therefore they are taught to be the antithesis of anything that is female. They are also taught that the worst insult is to be called A "girl", or told that they do something like a girl.

As long as male children are socialized in the aforementioned archaic draconian manner, the situation will never change. They will not step out of the boundary of the "Man Box" and will be forever relegated to drab fashion, drab colors, and very limited freedom of expression.

jamie001 wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 4:22 pm Even though fashion magazines have stated that the norms regarding gendered dressing have been relaxed, 98 percent of men will not care because most of them are satisfied with their drab uncomfortable clothing. Other men that may want to venture out into freestyle fashion will not because they are afraid that they will be perceived as homosexual, even though homosexual men for the most part do not incorporate items from women's fashion, they still adhere to this age-old misconception. That is why when some men hug other men or say something that may be interpreted as feminine, they sometimes make horrible statements like "no homo". It is really a sad situation because these men are the cause of oppression and they will never get in touch with their true self. Their entire life revolves around living in the "man box" that society has created for them and making statements that affirm that their "Man Card" is still valid. They go though life with a purpose to validate their masculinity at every chance possible.

The problem in a nutshell is that from the time when a male child is born they are socialized to believe that anything feminine or associated with women is inferior. Therefore they are taught to be the antithesis of anything that is female. They are also taught that the worst insult is to be called A "girl", or told that they do something like a girl.

As long as male children are socialized in the aforementioned archaic draconian manner, the situation will never change. They will not step out of the boundary of the "Man Box" and will be forever relegated to drab fashion, drab colors, and very limited freedom of expression.

Men tend to not change their wardrobe. You are right. Not sure it's because of them being "satisfied with their drab uncomfortable clothing," however.

Menswear, especially on the more formal end of the spectrum, has a tendency to be centered around a few "investment" items, like a suit, that a man spends a lot of money on, but expects to keep and keep wearing for years, or even decades. I still have a suit from high school that gets pulled out occasionally. That slows the rate of change men's fashion dramatically. It also encouraged men to buy something "timeless" and "versatile" if they are only going to buy one or two of a particular item.

On the "man card" thing, becoming a man in society's collective eye has always been seen as something earned, in nearly every culture. You don't just age into it, the way females seem do into womanhood. Our society doesn't have a well defined transition for men, so people keep trying to make one up. None really stick, and young men are left floundering for a way of proving themselves. It's not really needed on a practical level, but psychologically, we yearn for something. And without something fairly well defined, many men feel insecure about their manhood. There's no such thing as a "man card" in our society, but we seem wired to feel the need to try and earn one.

With men wearing more casual stuff generally, the suits they aren't wearing are bound to stagnate even more, somewhat the way the traditional kilt outfits have. Can something people aren't even tweaking on the daily really evolve organically at any speed? And with so many men's wardrobes dictated by their employer five days a week, is it any wonder men's fashion is stuck in a rut?

Not sure where this all goes, but it's the result of a lot more than just men being boring and not thinking about their clothes, or even being afraid of being confused for a member of the ever expanding LGBTQ+++ movement. While most straight guys don't want that, it's only a part of the way in which we've been taught to conform to expectations, real or imagined. We've been taught a way of being, and breaking out of that is especially hard for men. I think this has something to do with the way people work these days, but who knows?

As an aside, my (admittedly limited) understanding of the "no homo" thing, was that it wasn't about attacking homosexuals, but was a shorthand way of saying that the seemingly homosexual thing the guy saying it was doing wasn't being done in a homosexual manner and that it didn't mean he was a homosexual just because he did it. The "no homo" thing became the butt of jokes making fun of insecure heterosexual men. I'm not entirely sure it was ever really a serious thing. I've only ever seen it used as a joke, and mostly online. But hey, I give my male friends hugs all the time, and no one ever questions it...

As to not wanting to be called a girl, isn't that the same as the whole trans pronoun thing? If being called the wrong gender didn't matter, people wouldn't be up in arms about others getting their pronouns wrong.

And with all the empowering talk for girls I heard growing up, and all the warnings I got to always respect women, never hit them, show them deference, and treat them like they are beautiful spotless angels, even if they clearly aren't (I only exaggerate slightly), how anyone seriously still thinks that women and girls are looked down on and oppressed is beyond me. Unless of course you are making the "soft bigotry of low expectations" argument, but I've never heard that applied to the sexes, only race. Occasionally something similar from the most radical old-school feminists, but they are rejected by the new cultural rule makers as much as (or more than) the conservatives that have increasingly adopted their bad ideas.

Sixty two posts and many words later, has your world adopted the diktats of the Mighty Vogue?
Had to ask, as if mine has, it went way over my head.
Steve.