skirtcafe.org

Too much talk about 'logic' etc. here for my liking.

In my view, as human beings we are all entitled to take a view on any particular subject - for any reason that we choose - and that view is just as valid as any other viewpoint. Si if a woman says that she does not like her partner wearing a skirt - then that is a valid viewpoint and she should not have to justify that in any way whatsoever. That is just how she feels. End of story.

Here are a few points taken from the "Bill of Rights" that is often used in counselling or substance abuse rehab situations. It points out some of our inherent rights as human beings:

* I have a right to follow my own values and standards.
* I have a right to recognise and accept my own value system as appropriate.
* I have a right to say no to anything when I feel I am not ready, it is unsafe or violates my values.
* I have a right to dignity and respect.
* I have a right to make decisions.
* I have a right to determine and honour my own priorities.
* I have a right to have my needs and wants respected by others.
* I have a right to all of my feelings.
* I have a right to make decisions based on my feelings, my judgement or any reason that I choose.

Bearing those rights in mind, it seems to me that any issue around skirt wearing involving a partner or wife should not be approached from the point of view of "My viewpoint is logical and therefore she must eventually submit to it". That is both abhorrent and morally wrong anyway.

A partner is completely entitled to make her own decision about her mate wearing a skirt - and her viewpoint is 100% valid. As is the man who wears a skirt. Hopefully they are able to come to some sort of agreement or compromise - and that is great. But any issues like this between partners must be approached with complete mutual respect.

Too much talk about 'logic' etc. here for my liking.

Much of that yap is mine, and I work with computers. Draw your own conclusions.

A partner is completely entitled to make her own decision about her mate wearing a skirt - and her viewpoint is 100% valid. As is the man who wears a skirt. Hopefully they are able to come to some sort of agreement or compromise - and that is great. But any issues like this between partners must be approached with complete mutual respect.

That's very true, but I feel it fails to address the root of the subjects' feelings. Are those feelings truthfully rooted in fact or are the feelings rooted in emotion and, possibly, stereotype? I'm pushing way beyond the notion of blokes wearing skirts here; I'm shoving at the way that the human mind processes things.

In some cases we have "significant others" and wives exhibiting entirely visceral cases of revulsion to "their man" wearing a skirt ("it makes my stomach knot up"). I'll not belittle the subject's reaction to the matter, but will ask the questions, "Why? Can you say what it is about the notion that makes you feel so?" Only by confronting these sometimes very difficult questions can we (the broad "we") advance. I'll also not assert that it's going to be easy; quite the opposite, likely, in many situations. But, I believe that we, as humans, both male and female, need to come to grips with the way our thought processes work. For, if we don't, we're doomed to repeat all the mistakes that our ancestors did.

ChristopherJ wrote:Too much talk about 'logic' etc. here for my liking.

In my view, as human beings we are all entitled to take a view on any particular subject - for any reason that we choose - and that view is just as valid as any other viewpoint. Si if a woman says that she does not like her partner wearing a skirt - then that is a valid viewpoint and she should not have to justify that in any way whatsoever. That is just how she feels. End of story.

Here are a few points taken from the "Bill of Rights" that is often used in counselling or substance abuse rehab situations. It points out some of our inherent rights as human beings:

* I have a right to follow my own values and standards.
* I have a right to recognise and accept my own value system as appropriate.
* I have a right to say no to anything when I feel I am not ready, it is unsafe or violates my values.
* I have a right to dignity and respect.
* I have a right to make decisions.
* I have a right to determine and honour my own priorities.
* I have a right to have my needs and wants respected by others.
* I have a right to all of my feelings.
* I have a right to make decisions based on my feelings, my judgement or any reason that I choose.

Bearing those rights in mind, it seems to me that any issue around skirt wearing involving a partner or wife should not be approached from the point of view of "My viewpoint is logical and therefore she must eventually submit to it". That is both abhorrent and morally wrong anyway.

A partner is completely entitled to make her own decision about her mate wearing a skirt - and her viewpoint is 100% valid. As is the man who wears a skirt. Hopefully they are able to come to some sort of agreement or compromise - and that is great. But any issues like this between partners must be approached with complete mutual respect.

I think that:

One thing that I mis here, or I just haven't looked right, is that also what I have said, the wife, in our case, which may be one of the most obstructing things, with regards to wearing skirts, Is allowed her own opinion about what she thinks of a man in skirts, but doesn't by that very thought have any right at all to impede the man in any way, not by suggestion, a look that says "don't even think about it" or any other means of keeping the man from doing it. It is aparently something He has to do. I know, I'm doing it. It is not a whimsical fling, a one off, it is important essential that he do it. Once you are so far, there is no denying it. There is no turning back.

If infact the husband does not wear a skirt, he is living a lie to his wife.
He is hiding the truth. Everything is great, living a perfect marriage, for the outside world, and when it comes down to really loving the other, then apparently the wife in this case does'nt love her husband any more, but abandons him, emotionally. That is a terrible thing to do. And don't say that wearing a skirt is a terrible thing to do. Next you ( whoever) will be saying don't get sick, because then your wife has all the rght to have nothing more to do with you, ( even though the marriage vouws say in sicknes and in health! For better or for worse) in the same way that she handled with the skirt wearing. That is absolutely no way to live.

If the two really love each other, and that may be the real problem, only people can avoid that discussion very long, and in doing so doing more harm than good, is that the wife can show that she loves him by not stopping him, and at least being neutral and supportive in that way. He then can show his love in showing his understanding that this may be one of those things that some people may even never be able to grasp. All the while he is being himself, and she has the room to think about it and see with her own eyes that there is actually nothing ""wrong"". The very fact that the suggestion is put that two people are made for each other is the most disastrous lie ever thought up. It may be true for many, but certainly not for all, and is not a fact, and the sooner we realise that, the sooner we can work on living a real life instead of trying to prove that it is so even when you have differences.

It is like saying "I can do anything" If there is something you can't do, then that will be thrown at you. If you say "I can do most things"you are not less a man, and when you cannot do something, then there is no one that says a word, because that was one of the things you couldn't do as you had said. That is livable, the first is not.

We can get on with each other, but we always stay two unique people and will never be able to be truly one. Most of the time we can get around differences, but as the skirt wearing brings into vieuw, it shocks people into reality, that we are different people and that we may not be able to fit into each other's ways the whole of our lives. Because that is another thing that is not talked about just like men wearing skirts is never talked about and thus not understood until it happens in your very near vicinity.

The whole suggestion that men should not wear skirts on command is ludicrous. And even suggests that it may be done not out of a inner need, but just a moment of madness. And shows that people don't realise it ( is ) can be very much more than just putting on a piece of cloth, as we all know. It is a way of thinking that shows the faults of wrong upbringing, wrong information, or the lack of it regarding people who do and want to do things that may be in some way different to that which we know.

She should recognise that fact, like it or not, and not put any pressure on him whatsoever. By not supporting him in this new and in the begin a little uncertain adventure he is embarking on, she actually accuses him of doing something that is somehow very wrong, when infact he is just being himself. He is by doing so being true to his vowes, to himself and to her. She does not want him to be his true self, and she HAS NO RIGHT to that. The marriage bonds would I imagine state that very fact, that both partners have the right to be, and must be themselves, that a partner must never force the other to act other than what he or she really is. If you get my drift.

This is no critisism, but a defence pleading in favour of the man wearing a skirt.

If I have said it correctly, we can see that there is very much more to it than we may first think. There is no rule thta states that she has to be satisfied all her life and you don't It just so happens that you, the man, have evolved and that she has to adapt, just as she would have to adapt if you were to get sick. We have to adapt to changes all the time, if we don't or can't then it may in the worst scenario even lead to divorce. But living a lie for the show that the other person wants to put on for the outside world is no viable option.

When two people really understand each other, what it means to live together, they will give each other the room they need to live. That means respecting, not impeding.

Having said all this, it doesn't say that you must deliberately hurt the wife emotionaly by wearing. Which is an understatement, because you are really still yourself, following your life line, and she is the one who can't follow you. So the only one hurting anyone is the wife hurting the man. He has done nothing wrong, and she doesn't want to see his true self.

If people don't want to risk the chance that people wil be somehow become different, evolve as they grow older, then don't get married.

Peter v

PS after writing all this, trying to explain it as I see it, I am thinking, when wil a good psychiatrist write a good story about this phenomenon. Then we don't have to feel that we should try to put it in words.

This seems a bit one sided. Overall, consideration has to be made for what both partners in the relationship are going through.

In 1997, my Dad had end stage cancer, my Step Father had Alzheimers, my Mom was having mini strokes every several months and I had a serious infection that was mismanged by my doctor and my job was in jeopardy because of my illness and the amount of time I was spending taking care of my Dad.

If, at that time, Carl had declared that he wanted to wear skirts, I would not have had the wherewithal to support that decision. I would have felt, that with the tremendous burden I was carrying, he should have been supporting me, not the other way around. Emotionally, I had no reserves left and would have had a negative response because I just couldn't handle "one more thing".

The time between 1997 and 2001 seemed like there was nothing but death. Even my kittens were dying of a mysterious genetic disorder. Step Dad passed away in 2000 in the middle of the monstrous wildfires in Montana.

Mom had her final stroke on September 11, 2001. All flights within the US were grounded and I tried to figure out how to get from Massachusetts to Montana before Mom died. I did get on one of the first flights when the prohibition was lifted and sat in the Bozeman, MT airport between a life sized bronze statue of a grizzly bear and a man with a pink rifle case while I waited for my brother to pick me up.

Surreal.

When Carl announced that se was interested in wearing skirts, all that pain and confusion and death was behind me. I was at a conference with my girlsfriends having a happy time. I wasn't drowning in death, I was whooping it up.

So, consider what your wife or SO is going through in HER life. It is quite possible that she may be feeling overwhelmed and just can't take on "one more thing".

I'm not saying stop wearing skirts, just don't make it a big deal unitl you are both at a place where you can discuss it in a loving adult way.

Well said Sapphire. My wife is going through some stressful moments at the present time, and I believe that the last thing she needs right now is for a husband to increase that stress.

For me, fairness, logic and having a Right have less to do with it than good timing.

Sapphire,
I agree too, well said. We discussed my new love of skirts and decided to table it at least while my wife is around. She is up to her eyeballs in dramatic events for the next couple of months.

We will revisit when things settle down.

Thanks for your help Sapphire!

Yes, Sapphire, and the others, I give you merrit.
The situation I tried to present was one where life was just going along, normally. Not a life and death stress situation. That does change the moment somewhat but the principle is still standing. As soon as the abnormal situations which were given are somewhat behind you, then it is back on the rails and back to daily business, back to the issue at hand. When people get sick, that is treated, and life goes on, When a man is finally so far that he has to come out, it must happen. It is not something that you can just ignore.
So although there are situations, terrible situations which go on in people's lives, other things happen too, and must be handled. So too must the man come out, because it is more than just dressing up for halowen once a year. It is just a big a part of him as when he wears a pair of pants.

So although you of course take thing into account, and are rational, his life, the husband's life doesn't stop when other things are going on. He's not a robot that you can switch off. His needs must also be adressed. I somehow get the idea that although not meant, the man being himself is second to the needs of the wife. I think that is terribly wrong. as individuals, both people evolve parallell to each other, That is an ongoing thing, if one is sick, stressed or not. That is not being selfish, Being selfish is more the demanding that the man stop being himself, killing his personality on the spot just because the other, the wife in this case, has enough on her mind. Actually people always have enough on their mind, when it can be an excuse to be used as here to stop the husband from wearing skirts.

I must say, however your circumstances were bizarre, Sapphire, but even in a situation like that, the husband has a need to be himself, and I am sure that it would have only been better for him to go on with wearing even under those circumstances. It is not known before hand how long there will be circumstances that can be used as an argument to keep another person from wearing.

It may look strange to outsiders, but I think it is very essential that we men be our selves. BE OUR SELVES. Being ourselves makes us happier, more stable, stronger, and in situations as you, sapphire, terrible situations, then it is just the more important that the husband can carry the load. He can carry the load better if he is his true self.

It goes so far that if the wife keeps the husband from wearing skirts, that is the moment to file for a divorce. Because it is his medicine that he desperately needs, and she wants to withhold it from him. She will not be happier when he does not wear, because she, knowing that he will wear as soon as the ban is lifted, is constantly keeping his head held under water, she knows that he wants to, and is denying him that, while he may be suffocating under that situation. That is asking for problems.

There is no end to all the possibilitys, mistakes included as how to handle such a situation. But there are two people with needs. He and she. Not only She. Some men have taken the best years of their life to get so far, possibly just because they wanted to spare their wife, when actually they were not sparing her, but dragging their oordeal out while they were actually were suffering, not being able to fulfill their needs.

I am trying to put down a general situation sketch. I don't have answers to any specific couple's situation, I am not a psychiatrist or marriage councellor.

Seeing the situation that men just wait until their wives give them permission to be themselves is wrong, she may never give him permission to be himself, what then? Wait until you are finally eighty? So how long ""must"" (we don't must anything) we men wait? The moment that men tell their wives is the moment he must follow up and go thgrough with it. If the wife needs attention, the husband should be there for her, and vice verse.

As I see it, HE NEEDS ALL THE LOVING AND SUPPORT HIS WIFE CAN GIVE HIM THEN AND THERE. That is what I don't see here. Is that because we men are still indoctrinated to tsuccomb to the wishes of our wives? If so, now is the time to start with a new slate.

There is no choice for him in the matter. It is a nessessary thing that he has to go through and be free to do. He may have already waited half of his life, that is enough. It is just that I think that men need to stand up (more) for themselves with regards to the skirt wearing than what I read is going on. Living a lie for the other is not right.

Loving is giving, not keeping others from doing.

Peter v

Peter v,
You are right: "Loving is giving, not keeping others from doing"

This is something that goes both ways. One must support the other and the other must support the one. Sometimes the needs of one are greater than the needs of the other and sometimes the needs of the other are greater than then the needs of the one.

Most of the time both need to be flexible, but sometimes one has a heavier weight to carry than the other. It needs to be a collaboration, a partnership. Both need to support each other and recognize that the weight of one's woes might not be the same as their partner's and put their less pressing needs aside for a while.

When I went through that very bad time, I would not have had the emotional reserves to support Carl in skirt wearing. I would have let him wear skirts, but would have felt abandoned by him because I had so many needs at the time and would have felt that he was not supporting me. Is the the wearing of a skirt more important than the dying of one's partner's parents?

In a healthy relationship, one does not make the other do things or stop the other from self expression. However, life is not smooth and sometimes one has more to bear than the other. Partners need to be flexible and support each other in good times and bad.

I do not support the idea that one partner should force the other into some fantasy idea.

Still, there are times when one has to be stronger than the other and little details can be worked out afterwards.

[... H]is life, the husband's life doesn't stop when other things are going on. He's not a robot that you can switch off. His needs must also be adressed. I somehow get the idea that although not meant, the man being himself is second to the needs of the wife. I think that is terribly wrong. as individuals, both people evolve parallell to each other, That is an ongoing thing, if one is sick, stressed or not.[...]

It's also a matter of timing, as has been put forward. Long-term couples tend to be that way for a reason -- they actually do understand and cherish their counterparts in the relationship. Details need not be gone into in detail, but in this case we've got somebody's wife (of many years) who's completely floored with life issues that are vastly more important that what her husband decides to chuck 'round his legs on any given day -- she, due to the emotional load, just can't take on anything else. That's normal. That's human. Sometimes the small matters must slide to the background until the big issues are dealt with -- and skirt wearing is a small issue in the larger scope of things.

If, in calm times, a woman cannot deal with "her man" wearing a skirt, and it results in the relationship breaking up, then I'd posit that the relationship wasn't worth saving anyway. There simply wasn't enough mutual trust and respect for it to survive -- and, believe me,. it would be subjected to stresses far more powerful than mere fashion. The operant question in this limited case is not, "Can this marriage be saved?" but rather, "Should this marriage be saved?". Think about it. If both parties are so rigid that they cannot bend to assist the other in times of stress and hardship, is the thing really worth it at all?

I must say, however your circumstances were bizarre, Sapphire, but even in a situation like that, the husband has a need to be himself, and I am sure that it would have only been better for him to go on with wearing even under those circumstances.

Given what was going on, had I decided to take a lopsided view of ME to the exclusion of her at the time, I should just have walked away. I'm not that sort of bloke; I "signed on" for the long haul, and I take my vow to her rather seriously. In "bad times" I really don't have a difficult time being altruistic, because I trust my life partner to be the same way when I get into extreme duress. And it'll happen without asking, it'll happen without recrimination, and it'll happen with love. That's that long-haul relationships are about.

There's more to it than me.

Thank you both, Sapphire, and Crfriend, you have both given very generous answers. the extreme situation that was going on had to be addressed by both partners, and every form of attention to it was the right one, we being only human, but as we are only human, we don't always do what in hindsight should have been done. We are not infallable.

The way two people handle their lives is their business, with all mistakes or just choices.

It is always very difficult to put thoughts into words and treat all aspects clearly. What I tried to say, is that if Carl ( that's right, isn't it? ) was to wear skirts then, WITHOUT giving any less love and affection, caring to you, Sapphire, all should have been well. I was not there, so I CANNOT say anything really specific about your situation and will not. Nobody is insinuating that if one wears a skirt then there is no attention to the other any more. There will be no change for the worst, probably more for the better.

I am only trying to get men more assertive about their skirt wearing. In my way of thinking, this MUST not change any of the loving and caring that was before. And it should not and will not. I am trying to pleed for a continuance of the man's growth as a human being, he grows just as she "grows", continuously learning, changing all the time. Only when the skirt wearing, stepping out of the box, not a once in a lifetime clowns act, is seen as a natural happening, then by looking at it as such it may be easier to accept, more difficult to deny it by the wife, and others.

I say this, because I see how it is at the present, and think that the only way to adress it is to change the way men go about it in their marriages. Getting a better understanding of things for both partners can only help things positively, so it may come as a shock to some, but I truly think men must be more assertive about it. Being assertive does not mean treating anybody with less love, care or affection, but does mean comming up for your in this case, recognition of freestyling, in the form of your skirt wearing. That only makes you more whole than you were before, so the wife is actually getting more husband than she had before.

So just as wearing skirts out there on the street is the only real way, at least at the moment to get any real recognition, then going for it in the marriage, is the real way to go, you are so, so why should you deny yourself, and why should your wife deny it you . YOU ARE SO.

There is never a good moment to tell the other, as they are not waiting for anybody to tell them anything that is contrary to the situation as it is. No wife would want to hear that, at first, but does that mean that we men can better forget it, because it is not wanted? Turn that around, it is not wanted for the man to live a lie, to himself, denying himself being who he really is. That is self destruction. To deny a man that is willingly destructing him. That cannot be and must not be accepted.

Taking the situation of Sapphire as an extreme exception to the rule, it shows that discression on the part of the man, was in hindsight wise, but an unfortunate situation as that must not be the rule.

If I did not think it necessary, that men change the way they address the situation with their wives, I would certainly not talk about it.

When talking about these things, we must take a normal healthy marriage as the general rule.

Peter v.

It is always very difficult to put thoughts into words and treat all aspects clearly. What I tried to say, is that if Carl ( that's right, isn't it? ) was to wear skirts then, WITHOUT giving any less love and affection, caring to you, Sapphire, all should have been well.

I rather suspect that had I pulled skirt-wearing on Sapphire at the time when she had so many other things -- more important things (by my judgement) -- that she would not have dealt with it well. She certainly would not have dealt with it the way she did once all that baggage was behind her. Furthermore, it would have been selfish of me to expect her to deal with it rationally given circumstances at the time.

I am only trying to get men more assertive about their skirt wearing.

Most blokes can be plenty assertive when they want to be, and with things that are important to them. The "problem" in this case is that men tend to be timid about things like skirts and may not want to "risk offending" their partners; skirt-wearing, precisely because it is so unusual, is a tough thing for a guy to bring up to his wife/girlfriend, so many may simply not. That decision is highly personal and cannot be driven by outside forces; the guy must himself be ready, and he must feel that his partner is ready.

Those of us in long-haul relationships where the guy freely wears "non-traditional" (in a Western sense) attire know that it's not a big deal and, if we're lucky, our partners are happy with it and also know that it's not a big deal. That's why it's important for us to hear womens' voices in this discussion, and to listen to them carefully. The main issue is how things will be perceived early on once the notion of the guy wearing skirted garments is raised; I think the first couple of months are probably key in this regard.

The sad fact of the matter is is that some women will never be comfortable with "their man" wearing skirts, no matter how gentle and caring the man is, and will use any means necessary to keep him from doing so. If this rigidity doesn't change in time, it points up deeper problems in the relationship -- problems related to control issues rather than mutual love -- and might be a cue to examine the health of the relationship if skirt-wearing is very important to the guy. I would not recommend bailling from a long-term relationship over such a small matter, though. Everything needs to be looked at in perspective, but controlling behaviours are usually corrosive.

Being assertive does not mean treating anybody with less love, care or affection, but does mean comming up for your in this case, recognition of freestyling, in the form of your skirt wearing. That only makes you more whole than you were before, so the wife is actually getting more husband than she had before.

The problem here is not that she's "getting more husband than before"; it's that she's getting what she might perceive as a "different husband". Bear in mind that most humans tend to crave stability, and when a partner starts behaving in a way that only a miniscule percentage of the population behave, that can be pretty frightening.

The thing that actually bothers most adult male skirt wearers, until they get over it, is the fact that most adults are still in a semi-victorian mindset, ie: stiff coats, trousers, collars, ties, shoes, dull, black, with OMG, a colorful pocket patch...heh

Now on the other hand, young boys, with forward thinking parents will probably be the first male skirt wearers with NO mental baggage about accepting skirts as normal attire. There seems to be more than a few boys in the 5 to 10 year old group that are outwardly wondering and asking why their sisters can wear comfortable cool skirts and they HAVE to wear uncomfortable hot trousers. There are more than a few of them now that are demanding and getting their parents and school administrations to allow them to wear the same uniform type skirts to school that their sisters are wearing.

There is a documentary on IFC that runs every now and again recounting the progress of boys wearing skirts and/or tights, depending on the weather. I'll look thru my dvd collection and get the name of the program and get it in here for any who want it.

Thank you, crfriend, for your very enlightening discussion, and with your statement, :

" I rather suspect that had I pulled skirt-wearing on Sapphire at the time when she had so many other things -- more important things (by my judgement) -- that she would not have dealt with it well. She certainly would not have dealt with it the way she did once all that baggage was behind her. Furthermore, it would have been selfish of me to expect her to deal with it rationally given circumstances at the time.

I cannot agree more.

Although we will constantly address this topic, "where the problem lies"
We will only be able to stimulate others, but never be able to put into words the exact way that things take place in a relationship.

Thank you again ( and all others) for your participation in the discussion.

Peter v.