One small step

[Departed Member]

"Because of this, I regret to advise that I will not permit you to wear skirts, or other visible clothing that might reasonably be deemed to be exclusively for females, into work." So if you wear a men's skirt or kilt, that should be OK, as you can prove they're male garments?

binx

I agree. Kilts are essentially menswear - with a proven 'track record' of 200 years plus. Women who wear men's Kilts to perform in bands do so on the sole pretext that 'it is an accepted part of the uniform'. In other words, they are accepted and acknowledged as 'menswear' (worn) by women.

Equally a(ny) garment which fastens 'left over right' is (and can only be) 'menswear' (regardless of which department it may have been purchased from), as the equivalent article for women is exclusively 'right over left'.

Either of such garments cannot, by reason of their inferred (& demonstrable) 'masculinity' (i.e., having apparently been designed/intended to be worn by a person of the male gender), be regarded as "skirts, or other visible clothing that might reasonably be deemed to be exclusively for females". :shake:

Best of luck with your fight. Where the h*ll does their (written) statement now stand with regards to those women who may choose to wear a(ny) garment fastening 'left over right'? I think they may well have invertantly 'dropped themselves in it' regarding 'women's rights'. Get their (women's) Reps involved, if you can. This is now blatent sexism, either way! :shoot:

Oh, and to what are they referring by, "other visible clothing that might reasonably be deemed to be exclusively for females"? Is someone trying to accuse you of 'cross-dressing'? I would get that clarified PDQ, as it looks as if you may have substantial grounds for legal action already!

[crfriend]

To put it mildly, I was not happy yesterday.

I'd say that you showed remarkable wisdom and restraint in not firing something off immediately. Good show.

Because of this, I regret to advise that I will not permit you to wear skirts, or other visible clothing that might reasonably be deemed to be exclusively for females, into work.

So Management have shown their hand, then. They approach it on "gender" lines. If the laws of your land truly do enforce gender equality then you'll win. It'll be interesting to see.

They have confirmed that while the (Employer) has clear responsibilities to employees who can be defined as transsexual to transgender, the reasons you have given for wishing to wear a skirt into work indicate that you do not fall into these categories and instead reflect a lifestyle choice.

This snippet is interesting because the droid doesn't "get it" that clothes are just adornments that keep us modest and warm (or warm and modest, depending on climate). It shows profound ignorance, which is, I fear, all too typical. (To Matman -- whilst I fervently believe that there are good managers (note the lower-case "m"; the upper-case one being reserved for Dilbert-style incompetents), I cannot state that I've encountered a single one in the past six years of my career (and only three in the past twenty-five). The model they're being trained in is fundamentally flawed.) He clearly has a straitjacket approach to things, and that approach may (just may) contravene your local laws. For crying out loud, we're talking fabric here -- not weapons of mass destruction!

Nevertheless, the reply is quite explicit and restrictive. The issue is not dead and I will explain the next move after the letter:
[INDENT][/INDENT]The last few paragraphs are very clear but are written in a very bullish manner, perhaps to scare me into compliance with the 'norm'.

As far as Management being bullish (or, more appropriately, "bully-ish"), that's an avenue for your union to pursue, if they so desire. Have there been any indications that the National board are willing to take this one on? (Damn, I hope so.)

n the meantime I need your help. I need any medical correspondence that explicitly suggests that tr*sers can promote problems, or that MUGs can reduce them. Any other legal documents or evidence will also help.

There's at leat one bloke here at the Cafe, whose name escapes me at the moment, that has had medical issues. He'll probably pipe up.

Many thanks for everyone's continued support. The battle may be lost but the war continues.

As the old saw goes, "It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings." Persevere!

[Charlie]

I'm sure DanR would be only too happy to send your Manager a link to his website CitySkirt that manufactures skirts exclusively for men only, proving that all skirts are not exclusively female wear. along with all these other sites for skirts and/or kilts for men only.

Amerikilt
Bear Kilts
CitySkirt
Great Scot
King Kilts
KomfiKilts
LungiMan Surf Designs
Macabi Skirt
Utilikilts
Midas Clothing
NeoKilt
Persus
"R" Kilts
Running Kilts
SavannahKilts
Scottish American Outfitter
Sports Kilt

:stir:

Don't forget:

Union kilts
21st Century kilts

and is Menintime still going? I heard that they no longer sell on the web.

Charlie

[Overtahill]

Perhaps you have seen this already... if so, my apologies

Cheers,
Rick

[Since1982]

Charlie, I was just cutting out a random sampling of the nearly hundreds of sites carrying skirts/kilts for men. I didn't think it was neccessary to list them all. I'm happy you have added your favorites to the list as I wasn't trying to "slight" anyone by leaving their favorites off the list.:ninjajig: :shake:

[Charlie]

Not a problem, Skip. I've heard of the ones you've listed and wasn't aware that there were lots more :cheer:

I like Rick's cartoon. Where I work, there is no written dress code (yet!) and the company prides itself on being an equal opportunity employer. They probably haven't considered clothing choice as being an equal opportuniy issue. However, there are a lot of ex-servicemen there, including management, who are still quite institutionalised i.e. bulled up shoes, dark trousers, blue shirts, and ties, except for 'dress down Friday' when they adopt the other uniform - jeans. (With apologies to any ex-servicemen wearing skirts )

Charlie

[Topsy]

I know things have gone quiet over the last week and little has changed on the dress code issue.

My current problem is stress related so please excuse me if I post less for a while. I will be visiting my GP (doctor) tomorrow assuming I can beat the rush when the phone lines open at 8am. I remain resolute in winning my case but it appears that my managers (and to a lesser degree my wife) may be taking the opportunity to throw other issues towards me.

For info my union have asked me if I will be prepared to take the case to an Employment Tribunal. I have agreed this course but the managers are not yet aware of it, th could back down first! The case would fall under the Equal Opportunites Council who it is alledged favour the females over the males. I wait to see this in action and won't prejudge any result.

[boca]

Topsy -


I clap to your preserverance and steadfastness here in this issue.

One thing I might recommend is keeping the majority of the issue with your employer on that of equal rights and less so on medical data.

This is NOT ment to discredit any medical evidence out there, but I was thinking this should be simply an issue between your rights and your stubbern management, rather than butting a medical study against 15 company-paid doctors who say its wrong. Also, it seems that your connections with the union are mostly that on the right to wear a skirt, rather than a medical issue. My suggestion is to keep the issue of equal rights the basis of your arguement for simplicity sake, and also since your union is obviously taken this issue solely on the equal rights part of it.

[Topsy]

Update time ...

The official grievance system that is the first step towards changing the earlier negative decision swung into action yesterday.

The senior manager who is to hear the grievance had actually checked his diary and agreed a date!

Better still, the HR advisor who was responsible for the first decision has been replaced by a (female) colleague. At least there will be fewer present who have made their mind up in advance.

So onwards into next week!

On the personal front the stress that has been put in my direction meant that the doctor has now given me some medication. I will use this as part evidence to the managers as to how their line affects me.

[Charlie]

Topsy,

Challenging what amounts to corporate-sponsored discrimination takes real courage. Let's hope the female HR advisor turns up in trousers

Best wishes and here's hoping for a positive outcome :cheer: :cheer:

[shropshire steve]

It does seem that your management are creating a storm in a tea cup over all this. I am a manager (Grade 7) in DEFRA (UK Civil Service) and do wear skirts to work, although i have just been through a re-think phase. I have about 80 staff in my section and I would not think to question their dress style unless anyone else complained. Mostly people are far more tolerant than others give them credit for. Although we are said to live in an appearance dominated society, I find that in practice most people save most of their concentration for the job in hand and do not get too upset over dress styles unless completely outrageous.

Interested to know what Union you are in, I am a rep for Prospect and certainly the Union and also DEFRA's equal opps section seem to support my right to wear a skirt if i so wish.

[Topsy]

Steve

I will send you a PM about some of the questions that you have put to me as I do not my managers to go into Google and put out this thread

My Union is certainly behind me but noises from us about other depts not have the same policy have fallen on duff ears. Even the Welfare Officer from HQ (Marsham St SW1) knows about other males in other depts who openly wear skirts to work in a male role - but it appears I may be alone in my own dept.

[crfriend]

[...]I do not [want] my managers to go into Google and put out this thread

Welcome to the "modern world". I'm sure my presence here will be used against me in employment matters in the future as well. But, such is life I guess.... Good and decent tools can be, and are, used for good and evil purposes.

My Union is certainly behind me but noises from us about other depts [that do] not have the same policy have fallen on duff ears.

The only battle you can fight is the one you're engaged in now; to try and get into other ones, or be distracted by them, will only diminish your hand in the immediate matter.

By the by, don't hesitate to yell if my interpretations above are wrong.

As always -- stay strong!

[ChrisM]

Just a message of support for Topsy: Thank you for the battle, and for keeping us informed of its progress.

It has taken courage for you to forward this action, and many of us appreciate the opportunity to observe and learn from your experience.

Chris

[crfriend]

Just a message of support for Topsy: Thank you for the battle, and for keeping us informed of its progress.

I most heartily second that! Even though I'm an ocean (OK, a "pond" ) away, I'm watching this with quite some interest, and am hoping for a good and just outcome.