It's Now Official

[moonshadow]

If stronger people were categorised separately from weaker ones, regardless of the cause, competitive physical sport would be a lot fairer.  There are many factors besides to birth sex which contribute to competitive sport being unfair; proper measurement would correct for them.

In my opinion, this reply deserves some deeper discussion and consideration. It's an notion that I've often toyed with myself.

Some women are stronger than some men and some men are stronger than some women.

I'm sure we've all seem the cliché of the underweight "nerdy" boy in high school depicted in Hollywood productions as well as the enormous "tough girl Tom boy" as well.

Speaking personally, I've always sucked a sports, always rather awkward and clumsy on the field, always picked last (if picked at all) and underweight (though that problem has expired, just not in muscle mass ).

I guess being lousy at sports made me a girl?

Frankly I find this while thing asinine to the point of being comical. As I grew up on the tail end of second wave feminism, it was drilled into my head from a young age that "anything a man can do a woman can do better...". I can recall commercials and cartoons, sit-coms and movies (movies especially in the last 10 years) of women being depicted as smart, tough, cunning, quick whitted, calm under pressure, etc. And while I realize there is an element of "wokeness" to it, especially here lately, I have seem first hand that there are women who could literally run circles around most men. Women can, and in many cases are tough, when they want, or need to be. "Hell hath no fury...." and all that...

But now that more transgender women are entering the scene, suddenly the feminist and nay-sayers-conservatives are back-pedaling and now women are inferior to men on these accounts....

Yes INFERIOR to men. They won't come out and actually say that word "inferior", but that's what's implied.

So who's going to tell me that the strongest women alive are still weaker than the weakest men...?

It's just more hate-mongering, culture war, wedge issue bullsh!t.

Conservatives and feminist just have a problem with trans-girls... conservatives because to them, trans-girls are just boys pretending to be girls for some perverted reason and must be stopped, and feminist because to them trans-girls are just boys muscling in on their sacred spaces.

Bullsh!t

[crfriend]

Moon summed it up beautifully: Bullsh!t.

It's just one more ruse to keep the populace's eyes off the real problems that plague us.

[Pdxfashionpioneer]

Moon summed it up beautifully: Bullsh!t.

It's just one more ruse to keep the populace's eyes off the real problems that plague us.

Carl, knock that off!

How are we going to keep people interested in these threads if I keep having to agree with you? Wholeheartedly, no less!

[Dust]

Do these things matter? To most, not really. Not directly, at least.

Do we have bigger problems? Sure.

Is Moon a girl? No.

Are the strongest women alive weaker than the weakest men? Of course not.

But here's the thing: athletics today are more than just a feel good pastime. They are big money. Even at the high school level.

High school kids can get serious money for college if they are at the top tier in some sports. Many spots in fact. And girl's sports (thanks to Title IX) are no different. For some kids, a college scholarship means going to college at all. For others it means not starting life after college up to their eyeballs in debt. Either can be life-changing.

Not saying this is how it should be, but that's how it is. And it's easier to find sports scholarships than academic ones. Once again, probably not the way it should be, but that's another discussion.

Now, does a boy who is mediocre or crappy at a sport in the boy's division become an elite athlete in the girl's division after a year on hormones? Probably not.

But when boys go through male puberty, changes happen to everything from muscle density, to lung capacity, to bone structure, much of which is irreversible.

Is it enough? In many cases not. But it depends on the person, and the sport. The U Penn swimmer was an elite athlete to begin with. Not winning in the men's division, but had made a high level college team, and was competitive at that level. After transitioning, started winning. Hands down. Nearly every meet. By large margins in many cases.

Do what advantages does such a swimmer not lose? Lung capacity? Muscle density? Maybe... What about arm span and hand/feet size? Definitely. Are every man's hands bigger than every woman's? No. Do larger hands mean more power into the water as a swimmer? Yes. Does every scrap of advantage matter at the elite level of competition? For sure. Would this swimmer have progressed to the top of the men's division if they had not transitioned? Maybe, but it seems unlikely.

Girls have claimed that they lost out on college scholarships because they didn't end up going to or medaling at state high school competitions because of a trans athlete taking their spot. They might be right.

Is this being used as a wedge issue? Of course.

Is that fair to the athletes? No.

Should we be able to come to a consensus on this without all the drama? Probably.

Why is it such a hot topic though? It doesn't involve many people. Is it because we put too much emphasis on sports? Partly. I think it has more to do with differing world views between already divided groups in society. Not clear cut. Not wholly political either.

To a farmer, the difference between a hen and a to rooster is clear as night and day. To someone in a city, the meat in grocery store could come from either, and they couldn't care less. To an academic, the point at which day becomes night and vice versa can be an interesting point of discussion, and even matter in some cases.

I'd say leave the trans athletics debate to the athletes, but it's instead being hashed out by athletic organizations under intense political pressure, and nothing good is coming of it.

[Bodycon]

I'd say leave the trans athletics debate to the athletes, but it's instead being hashed out by athletic organizations under intense political pressure, and nothing good is coming of it.

The athletes are, unfortunately, the last people to leave it up to. They are wholly focussed on themselves and any advantage they can get, be it fair or unfair, they will take. Elite athletes are, of course, playing with tighter margins, so parity does not come into their thoughts. Don't be swayed by the polished speeches and rehearsed smiles...

My thoughts are that for strength and endurance sports, allow participation based on birth sex only and good luck. If you have reassigned gender then I hope you are happy, but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Yes, some people will be angry, upset and complain, but that way everything is simple and no grey areas, which is what is needed. Where competition can be on parity regardless of sex or gender, then do away with male and female events and just have an inclusive competition. Shooting for example: shotgun, rifle and pistol events, can be mixed and let the best person win.

[moonshadow]

Pretty good and balanced comment Dust, Bodycon.

Girls have claimed that they lost out on college scholarships because they didn't end up going to or medaling at state high school competitions because of a trans athlete taking their spot. They might be right.

Yep... they might be [right].

Such is life. If I had a nickle for every time I had to suffer an injustice, I would have enough to attend college myself. That's life. Who told these girls that life was fair to begin with?? Human history is completely littered with folks of all genders that got screwed, and screwed hard. What... these girls think they're special? They're not. They've got the same 50/50 shot as everyone else.

Sometimes you're the hammer, sometimes you're the nail. And during those times when you're the hammer, someone else is the nail. The universe won't balance the books until we're all extinct.

[rode_kater]

My thoughts are that for strength and endurance sports, allow participation based on birth sex only and good luck. If you have reassigned gender then I hope you are happy, but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Yes, some people will be angry, upset and complain, but that way everything is simple and no grey areas, which is what is needed. Where competition can be on parity regardless of sex or gender, then do away with male and female events and just have an inclusive competition. Shooting for example: shotgun, rifle and pistol events, can be mixed and let the best person win.

But who are "the few"? The statistics I can quickly find count around 11,000 gender confirmation surgeries per year in the US alone. The number of people taking hormones must be some multiple of that at least. I don't know how many elite athletes there are but my guess is the number is far smaller. And frankly, I don't have much sympathy with the position of elite athletes.

And if we're not talking about elite athletes, then I don't see the problem actually.

[rivegauche]

I find competitive sport pointless. I dread the Olympics and Wimbledon. Yes, there is unfairness if a woman misses out because of a trans athlete. Why is that any more unfair than me missing out because y legs are too short? Sport selects by genetics - one of the few aspects of modern life where genetics determine your progress - tuition matters - but if your legs are short you are not going to win track events. We have different competitions for men and women and we have different competitions for different weights in the barbaric 'sport' that is boxing. Why not leg length? Sport is an irrelevance in modern society. How does it improve society of Liverpool win a cup or two? Think how all that energy and enthusiasm could be channelled more productively.

[moonshadow]

Wasn't the original purpose of sports (the Olympics) to give people (and nations) a better means to compete against one another so we wouldn't go to war with each other..?

Kinda ironic.

Anyway... I don't do sports either and couldn't care less either way.

Get a real job.... that goes for trans and cis people alike.

[Bodycon]

I find competitive sport pointless. I dread the Olympics and Wimbledon. Yes, there is unfairness if a woman misses out because of a trans athlete. Why is that any more unfair than me missing out because y legs are too short? Sport selects by genetics - one of the few aspects of modern life where genetics determine your progress - tuition matters - but if your legs are short you are not going to win track events. We have different competitions for men and women and we have different competitions for different weights in the barbaric 'sport' that is boxing. Why not leg length? Sport is an irrelevance in modern society. How does it improve society of Liverpool win a cup or two? Think how all that energy and enthusiasm could be channelled more productively.

I'm not sure where to start with a reply to this, there is so much that you misunderstand about sport.

Team sports are about learning collective responsibility and working with others. Winning and losing as a group, sharing those highs and lows. Professional sportspeople should, but do not always, set an example for others to follow. I could care less about football (soccer to the colonials), however, so many of our teams were inaugurated to help the societies where they began. Celtic in Glasgow, for example, were created as a means of generating income to support the poor immigrants of the east end. At the time they provided exercise and camaraderie for participants and supporters an outlet away from the daily grind, helping with mental health etc. too.

Women's team sports are now coming to the fore and helping with equality issues.

Individual sports are more introspective, and are generally about skill, control and self reliance. I am a competitive shooter, if I miss, its down to me, no-one else to blame. That is both good and bad to a degree, but the big positive is that it gives you a can-do attitude which transfers into the workplace and socially.

Happy people are more productive people, so Liverpool winning a cup, makes at least half of Liverpudlians and a fair few others happy and productive at work and in life. Generally people who participate in sport are less likely to be ill and have less mental health issues.

Music is very similar and using your logic, equally as pointless. It creates nothing but noise; yet since the dawn of time we have made and appreciated it for what it is. A pleasure to create and a pleasure to listen to, with a few life lessons thrown in for good measure.

[rivegauche]

Sport and music as equivalents? Non-argument. Music has beauty in its own right. In sport you only prevail by beating someone else at something inherently pointless. Running 400m a hundredth of a second faster the other guy contributes nothing to society. It has no inherent value. We were talking of gender and sport, not team games. In any sport genetics induces unfairness. XY and XX is just one aspect of this. Team sports do indeed encourage co-operation and make people feel good. They are also a primitive form of tribalism where mindless violence often flares among supporters. Successful athletes and footballers are valued by society far more than doctors or lifeboatmen, and often earn many times more. All of this is just WRONG

[rode_kater]

It has no inherent value.

Bread and circuses my friend. Bread and circuses.

A bit less important now due to TV with cable and streaming. But you need something to distract people from the real issues.

[Kirbstone]

Some half-a-Century ago as a young blood I attended a large party in a London suburb and there I spied a bloke wearing a GB Olympic blazer. I was also surprized to note that he had a rather portly figure, not the lean frame I'd associate with Olympians.

I got into conversation with him and asked him what was his sporting event, whereupon he said 'Shooting'. Regardless of body shape, if you're a crack shot, chances are you'll get selected for the Olympics.

Tom

[Myopic Bookworm]

I was also surprized to note that he had a rather portly figure, not the lean frame I'd associate with Olympians.

It has been wittily observed that the British are good at Olympic sports which you can do while sitting down!

[Kirbstone]

Ah yes, MB, We Irish are also masters of the sitting-down sports art.....Try rowing. I've been at that for 60-odd years now and some of our lads & lassies won Olympic medals at just that last year, all while sitting down!

Cycling is another example. I've no doubt that Sir Bradley Wiggins might have something to say on that subject.

Tom