Gaslighting

[Kirbstone]

Ah yes, Ray....

Flanders & Swann ..........'Now I don't care for Sherry and shouldn't drink Stout, and Port is a wine I could well do without....(pointing at his limp) it's simply a case of Chacon ai son Gout!'.........Have some Mediera, M'Dear !'

I (used to) keep that one fresh for parties. I wonder when we'll be able to throw one again?

Tom

[Ray]

Tom

Great lyrics!

If I may quote Christy Moore:

Goodbye to the port and brandy, to the vodka and the Stag
To the Smithwicks and the Harp and the bottle, draught and keg
As I sat lookin' up at the Guinness and I could never figure out
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after 14 pints of stout

Now, a party. Wouldn’t that be nice?

[Faldaguy]

I've been overseas a little bit. I've also watched folks come to America for medical treatment because their country's socialist medical system failed them. I've also seen what socialized medicine we do have here fail friends and family.

And I've watched many US citizens go to other countries for superior care yet, or simply care they can afford.

One of the things you learn from living, working, or reading the press in other lands is that the US has a very insular view of itself -- which serves those with gobs of capital very well. It is easy to cherry-pick stories from pretty much any country or medical system to illustrate a bias; and those stories are widely placed to garner support for someone's agenda. I remain amazed at the number of people who still want to "get into" the US given the horrors many will face there -- the horrors are sometimes worse in other places; and sometimes it is just misinformation -- they have bought into the "streets are paved with gold" song.

I've seen quite a few countries, and not found the perfect one yet. Once, back in the early 80's when leaving Hawaii I made a matrix of about 30 factors that were important to us in deciding where to live next, and no country stood out hugely, but a couple did for different reasons. I've since had an opportunity to live, or have an extended visit in both -- and neither were near the wonders they may have appeared on paper, though both had nice attributes as well.

But when it comes to medical care; and a notion of what a good governmental system is; and the role of capital -- it seems the Yankee American (& a lot of Canucks too) seem to have been duped by their own BS -- that they have the only meritocracy on the planet. With health care for example, here is a link https://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf to the WHO members, ranking the US as 37th. in efficiency that you were touting. I forget which northern tier University publishes an annual report on healthcare outcomes in about 100 countries, and typically the US ranks about 25th - 35th. over the years I've seen it. And virtually every fact based site you check will point out the the US Healthcare system is by far the most expensive in the world and ranks well down from many other countries in outcomes. What is worse, is that it is not available to many of it's own citizens, & more personal bankruptcies occur from medical bills than any other reason. Tell me where is the justice or decency in that?

I've been following this thread with bits of wry amusement at the banter and slog slogans being bandied about. We (SK) seem to be doing a pretty good job of our own gaslighting! But one of the nice aspects of this site is we do have members from many spots on this globe, and hopefully we can garner some useful insights by listening to one another without the rancor and drive to 'defend' any single entity. None are perfect -- though just to toss out a grenade, I'll suggest NZ came about as close to ideal as I've lived in! OK, guys -- fire away!

[Dust]

One of the highest compliments you used to be able to pay someone was, "You're a gentleman and a scholar."; nowadays, that puts one on thin ice if conversing with someone under 45

Wait... the age or the man??

The speaker. However It is not a phrase than anybody under 40 or 45 would even necessarily know of, so might well misinterpret it.

I'm under both those ages and heard that phrase a lot growing up. Don't write all of us young folk off as classless and anti-intellectual...

I do have a bias towards the hard sciences when it comes to degrees, but I do not have a bias towards ignorance. I also have noted over the years that not all smart, knowledgeable people have degrees; and conversely, not all people with degrees are smart or knowledgeable.... Some degrees are not worth the paper they are written on.

[Dust]

Falda Guy,

I'm not sure efficiency is the best metric here. Denying care and letting people die is very efficient. That is not what anyone wants, however.

[denimini]

Falda Guy,

I'm not sure efficiency is the best metric here. Denying care and letting people die is very efficient. That is not what anyone wants, however.

Reminds me of an episode of "Yes Minister" where the most efficient hospital didn't have any patients.

[Faldaguy]

by Dust » Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:39 pm

Falda Guy,

I'm not sure efficiency is the best metric here. Denying care and letting people die is very efficient. That is not what anyone wants, however.

Dust, the use of the word "efficiency" was a poor choice -- but if you read the whole post you would see that "outcomes" was what was being measured, and in their parlance this relates to fewer infant deaths, more recoveries from given conditions, etc. The very things we want from our medical care, and the US is well down the list in obtaining the best outcomes, but it does cost the most money. Sadly, it seems to cost a lot more lives as well, literally and figuratively.

[Pdxfashionpioneer]

the US is well down the list in obtaining the best outcomes, but it does cost the most money.

In fact, the percentage of Gross Domestic Product we spend on healthcare is twice as much as the average developed nation and our percentage is in fact an outlier when compared to other nations.

The one area in which we excel is in cutting edge medical technology, hence the reason the well-heeled who come to the US for last resort medical care.

The irony is that something like 45% of the nation's medical bill is already paid by one level of government or another. So, as Sen. Bernie Sanders has asserted, US single-payer medical care should be able to pay for itself. Over time. What a study of the Oregon Health System (Oregon's revamped Medicaid plan that made participation more widespread and less expensive than it ever had been before) showed is that during the first few years the System cost far more than was projected because so many poor people had deferred far more and far more expensive medical care than anyone had ever imagined. But once the backlog of medical care was cleared out, the plan started costing less than anticipated because the participants were seeing doctors sooner rather than later and taking more preventive care.

It's fascinating that some of the most vocal opponents of government-subsidized US health care are receiving their health care through Medicare or the Veterans Administration. Tell me, why should the government provide for their healthcare, but not everyone else's?

[Dust]

It's fascinating that some of the most vocal opponents of government-subsidized US health care are receiving their health care through Medicare or the Veterans Administration. Tell me, why should the government provide for their healthcare, but not everyone else's?

They know how bad government run healthcare can be, first hand. Vets tend to have medical issues resulting from their service, and should be taken care of by the government. Medicare is another story...

[moonshadow]

It's fascinating that some of the most vocal opponents of government-subsidized US health care are receiving their health care through Medicare or the Veterans Administration. Tell me, why should the government provide for their healthcare, but not everyone else's?

They know how bad government run healthcare can be, first hand. Vets tend to have medical issues resulting from their service, and should be taken care of by the government. Medicare is another story...

My wife has Medicare, as well as one of those subsidized plans that go along with it. She's had it since 2007 and has never complained.

Her and I see the same doctor... she hardly ever gets a bill, and when she does... it's like... a couple of dollars... literally.

Amber is on my private employer insurance, and despite it being considered "good insurance" for being a private sector plan... we still have to make payments on what our insurance doesn't cover...

My father who is also DAMNED OPPOSED to universal Healthcare has been on Medicare since 1995, in that time he's filed bankruptcy twice, but NEVER over medical expenses. He's never had a medical bill he couldn't pay off in a few months, and he has A LOT of health problems.

Anyway... I say, let anyone on Medicare, Medicaid, or any other government sponsored health plan who doesn't support universal Healthcare hand over their health card.

Those who don't are a hypocrite... plain and simple. [0]

Pay your doctor bills with CASH... THE TRUE CAPITALIST WAY!

[0] I excuse veterans utilizing the VA system from this dressing down in hypocrisy, as the U.S. military is/was effectively their "employer", and thus in practice no different that any private employer offering medical insurance to one of their own employees.

But Medicare and Medicaid are straight up socialist health systems.

[Faldaguy]

by moonshadow » Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:15 am

Dust wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:31 am
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:22 am

It's fascinating that some of the most vocal opponents of government-subsidized US health care are receiving their health care through Medicare or the Veterans Administration. Tell me, why should the government provide for their healthcare, but not everyone else's?

Anyway... I say, let anyone on Medicare, Medicaid, or any other government sponsored health plan who doesn't support universal Healthcare hand over their health card.

Those who don't are a hypocrite... plain and simple. [0]

Pay your doctor bills with CASH... THE TRUE CAPITALIST WAY!

[But Medicare and Medicaid are straight up socialist health systems.

Ah, come-on Moon; the subject of this thread is "Gaslighting" -- let's do it up right!

Below is a partial list of of Socialist Programs in the USA -- you'll be hard pressed to find anyone that wants to toss them all, or even many of them. It is long past time for people to acknowledge that the term "socialist" is not the downfall of mankind! I've eliminated the description for most of these to keep the length reasonable. If you want the details, there is a link at the bottom -- but it will 'gaslight' some you a bit more as it comes from a biased publication -- yet I doubt any here can argue that there is not a heck of a lot of benefit and willing participation in these programs.

Socialism is taxpayer funds being used collectively to benefit society as a whole, despite income, contribution, or ability.
Sounds horrible, huh?

...but Socialism, which you have been told to fear all your life, is responsible for all this...

1. The Military/Defense –
2. Highways/Roads –
3. Public Libraries –
4. Police
5. Fire Dept. –
6. Postal Service –
7. Student Loans and Grants
8. Bridges
9. Garbage Collection –
10. Public Landfills –
11. War - That's right! War would not be possible without socialism. Your tax dollars are used to fight wars for your country. This is Big Government at it's biggest. Private companies don't attack other countries, at least not yet. Government is the only entity in America that can defend us from foreign enemies and our tax dollars are used for every second of it. Socialism has brought down Adolf Hitler, Saddam Hussein, and Bin Laden. War may very well be the most socialist thing on this list.
12. Farm Subsidies –
13. CIA –
14. FBI -
15. Congressional Health Care - As Republicans in congress warn us of the evils of government-run health care, most of them are covered by taxpayer-funded government-run health care. You literally pay for their health care while they tell you that paying for your neighbors health care through a public option or single-payer system is socialism. They are 100% correct, it is socialism. They're just not telling you that they like their socialist health care, they just don't think you should have it. They are afraid you might like it better than the private insurance you have now that funds their campaigns and gives them money to push what is best for them and not for you. Members of congress are free to opt out of their evil government health care, but most of them don't because deep down, they like socialism too.
16. Polio Vaccine –
17. EPA - But if you don't like breathing mercury, drinking dirty water, and breathing in chemicals, you should like this example of socialism working for the people.
18. Social Security -
19. Museums –
20. Public Schools - Can't afford to send your children to an expensive private school? Thanks to socialism 21. Jail/Prison System - There are also many private prisons in the United States. However, they have a higher escape rate than their socialist counterpart. Besides, don't you see the bad incentives in having a private prison system that profits from having people in prison? Since a business's top goal is to make more money than the year before, the only feasible agenda would be to get everyone in prison.
22. Corporate/Business Subsidies –
23. Veteran's (VA) Health Care - Our soldiers bravely go to foreign countries and risk their lives at the request of their government and the American people. For those who survive, we as a country feel committed and obligated to ensure that they have everything they need for the rest of their lives for their service to us in which we could never fully repay. So we the taxpayers fund their health care in a government-run single-payer system for veterans. Many soldiers return with mental and/or physical health issues that would cost them thousands in a private health care plan. Socialism funds the military, the overall war, and also takes care of our troops when they return home.
24. Public Parks
25. All Elected Government Officials - From the Supreme Court, to the President of the United States and all the way down to the County Dog Catcher, taxpayers pay their salary and provide the funding for them to do their job. We pay for every aspect of their job. So in a sense, I guess you could say our whole country is run on socialism.
26. Food Stamps -… just like corporate welfare, welfare is socialism.
27. Sewer System –
28. Medicare - Medicare is one of the most liked socialist programs in America. Most of us don't mind paying taxes to provide our senior citizens with health care and hope the next generation will do the same for us. If you don't believe me, just look at almost any poll. Most seniors would not be able to afford private health care. So this form of socialism is a life saver for this nation's grandparents and senior citizens.
29. Court System
30. Bird Flu Vaccine –
31. G.I. Bill
32. Hoover Dam –
33. State/City Zoos –
34. IRS - I know, the IRS is about as popular and well liked in America as a hemorrhoid, but think about it. The IRS is the reason that we have anything. The IRS collects taxpayer funds for the federal government. The government then dispenses these funds to our military, states, and social programs. If there is no one collecting taxes, no one will pay them. If no one pays taxes, our country shuts down. Without money to operate, nothing operates.
35. Free Lunch Program –
36. The Pentagon
37. Medicaid - If everyone is covered, costs drop for everyone. If you have no compassion for the uninsured, you can at least understand the rational in a selfish sense.
38. FDA
39. Health Care for 9/11 Rescue Workers –
40. Swine Flu Vaccine - Do you have swine flu right now? Then thank government and the socialist structure.
41. Disability Insurance (SSDI)
42. Town/State Run Beaches –
43. Corporate Bailouts/Welfare - The whole point of this post is to prove that we ALL use, benefit from, and like socialism. This example is a form of socialism that the republicans not only like, but fight tooth and nail for. They don't like it when socialism is used for working/poor people, but when it's for millionaires and their corporate donors, socialism becomes as American as apple pie. The middle/working class who are the majority of taxpayers pay for welfare for corporations and people who have more money than all of us combined. When our government bails out a bank or gives a subsidy to a billion dollar corporation, you are paying for it.
44. State Construction –
45. Unemployment Insurance
46. City/Metro Buses -
47. WIC
48. State Snow Removal
49. PBS (Public Broadcasting Service) - PBS operates on donations and government funding. The provide non-partisan news and information to the public. They are the home of Sesame Street, Masterpiece Theater, and The Antiques Roadshow. Surveys show that they are literally the most trusted name in news. I wonder how Fox feels about that?
50. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)
51. Welfare
52. Public Street Lighting –
53. FEMA
54. Public Defenders
55. S-CHIP
56. Amtrak
57. NPR - National Public Radio operates on private and federal funding along with public donations. NPR has been one of the most trusted news sources in America for over 40 years.
58. The Department of Homeland Security –
59. OSHA - Do you have a safe and healthy workplace that provides training, outreach, education, and assistance? Thank OSHA! Brought to you by the taxpayers of America and socialism.
60. State and National Monuments -
61. The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) Your tax dollars are used to help keep what you are eating safe and even feed those who are not eating.
62. Government Scholarships
63. Department of Health and Human Service –

64. Census Bureau The information collected is used to better understand the economic situation and population in your area. Not to enslave you in a FEMA camp.
65. Department of Energy –
66. Customs and Border Protection -
67. Department of Education –
68. Secret Service –
69. Peace Corps - The Peace Corps is a volunteer program run by the government that helps people outside of the US to understand our culture as well as helping us learn about other cultures. However they are more well known for their work with economic and social development in less-fortunate countries. Sounds very Christian for being a socialist program, huh?
70. Department of Justice -
71. National Weather Service –
72. The White House - Our taxpayer dollars through a socialist means pays for the house that the president and his family live in during a presidents time in office.
73. Government –
74. Law - Laws and rules make our democracy possible. Remove these laws and you have sheer anarchy. Laws do not appear out of thin air. To have law, you need a government. You need elected lawmakers to make the laws and a government to implement and enforce them. Socialism is responsible for every law in this country. Without our government and lawmakers which exist thanks to socialism, there would be no laws. So the laws themselves, are enforced and implemented thanks to socialism.
75. Civilization - As an American citizen, you enjoy freedoms that many in other countries do not. Like anything else in this world, our government is not perfect, but you should be thankful everyday that your country has a government that feels an obligation to serve the people and protect their rights and freedoms. This is completely possible because of government, taxes, and socialism. Do you think the private sector would do a better job of governing our country? Do you think corporations would enact laws to help protect and serve you and your family or them and their profits? The reason you can read this blog and the reason I can write it whether you agree with it or not is because of the freedoms we have here in America enforced and protected through socialist means. Our entire civilization depends on us being a people united. Socialism is a glue that binds us together and makes possible the things that we could not accomplish as individuals working against each other.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2012/3 ... ed-America

[moonshadow]

Eehhh... some of that list may be stretching it a bit, but for the most part, it's a pretty good one.

As for the military, it probably could be considered socialist, but it gets complicated as we have a lot of private defense contractors scattered around the globe.

Socialism is basically where the means of production and distribution is owned by society or the community at large, as opposed to private individuals (capitalism).

Neither are the boogie man... both are just economic theories, both can succeed or fail depending largely on community cooperation and management.

Pure socialism and pure capitalism fail, whenever we get too close to one or the other, failure seems inevitable, but this isn't the fault of the "ism" rather is the result of folly in the society in question.

The winning key is to try to strike a balance. It will never be a perfect science, as such moving one economic dial effects three others.

The U.S. is hardwired for capitalism, it's been this way from the beginning, but it is starting to collapse over various reasons, requiring us to adjust the economic dials...

[STEVIE]

Hi Moon
Must ask, have you read "The Grapes of Wrath"?
I ask because I am revisiting it for the first time in more than 40 years.
From some stuff that I have read in the cafe recently, I wonder how much America has changed?
Steve.

[Faldaguy]

by moonshadow » Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:57 pm

Eehhh... some of that list may be stretching it a bit, but for the most part, it's a pretty good one.

As for the military, it probably could be considered socialist, but it gets complicated as we have a lot of private defense contractors scattered around the globe. Just another bit of the governments private/public sector cover for graft -- them contractors get paid from the Pentagon.

Pure socialism and pure capitalism fail, whenever we get too close to one or the other, failure seems inevitable, but this isn't the fault of the "ism" rather is the result of folly in the society in question.

The winning key is to try to strike a balance. It will never be a perfect science, as such moving one economic dial effects three others.

The U.S. is hardwired for capitalism, it's been this way from the beginning, but it is starting to collapse over various reasons, requiring us to adjust the economic dials...

all the rest seems a fair summary -- the point being the US is vastly more "socialist" that most realize -- and most of those do indulge and like it's socialist side!

[moonshadow]

all the rest seems a fair summary -- the point being the US is vastly more "socialist" that most realize -- and most of those do indulge and like it's socialist side!

Indeed, it would seem the theme of the typical American is..

"I want the government to work for me, and only me!"